Wikipedia:Peer review/Charles Gounod/archive1

Charles Gounod

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With the aim of getting Gounod into the group of French composers with Featured Articles (at present Alkan, Berlioz, Bizet, Debussy, Fauré, Josquin, Massenet, Messager, Messiaen, Poulenc, Ravel and Saint-Saëns) I've expanded and revised his article. Faust apart, Gounod is so neglected nowadays that old sources are much more plentiful than modern ones, but I think I have found enough to reflect current scholarship. Suggestions will be most welcome for improving the prose, balance, referencing – anything, really. – Tim riley talk 12:44, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some preliminary bits and pieces

I'm not a great fan of Charles, I fear, he is rather too milquetoast for me. You put in the lead that Mendelssohn, "was an important influence on him" - I don't see how that is supported in the text, (apart from a brief reference to G's first symphony) although G. certainly thought very highly of M. I do know that G. created a division of critical opinion in London, with J W Davison agin, and Henry Chorley generally pro, and although Mrs. Weldon is generally far more interesting, the reaction to his music in London may be worth expanding a bit. Apparently G. ended up having a major quarrel with the Albert Hall. See Davison, Henry (1912). Music in the Victorian Era from Mendelssohn to Wagner: Being the memoirs of J. W. Davison, Forty Years Music Critic of "The Times". London: Wm. Reeves. OCLC 671571687. p. 299 et seq. More anon, possibly.--Smerus (talk) 17:01, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good stuff – thank you Smerus. I'll enjoy following up your suggested leads. More anon from me, and I hope from you, too. Tim riley talk 19:42, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above points now attended to – satisfactorily, I hope. Tim riley talk 11:42, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

:-) --Smerus (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KJP1

I shall bring my colossal music ignorance but occasionally useful nitpicking to bear on Monsieur Gounod. If you have the time to return the favour here, it would be much appreciated. But it's by no means required. The building is not to everyone's taste and you may find it painful! KJP1 (talk) 11:32, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good grief! What a pile! But more than happy to look in. Meanwhile, no rush here. Tim riley talk 11:42, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Batch 1

Lead

"Georgina Weldon, who exercised great influence over him" - I wonder if there's another world for influence? It's clearly not meant in the sense used in the para. above, i.e. Mendelssohn's advocacy of Bach was an early musical influence on him. Reading Mrs Weldon's article, she sounds rather a baleful influence at the very least!

Good point. I hadn't spotted the two "influences". I've changed to make her the controlling figure in his life. Tim riley talk 15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Life and career - Early years

"Early influences on him, in addition to his mother's musical instruction, were operas, seen at the Théâtre-Italien: Rossini's Otello and Mozart's Don Giovanni." - Is something missing here? It doesn't quite seem to flow. "including"?

I think this says what I'm trying to say. He mentions only the two operas in his memoirs, so I can't conscientiously say "including". Tim riley talk 15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Later in the year he heard performances of Beethoven" - "Later in the same year", that being 1835?

Yes, good. Tim riley talk 15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Prix de Rome

"In doing so he was following his father: François had taken the second prize in the Prix de Rome for painting in 1783" - is "following" quite right, given that he came first and his father second? "surpassing"?

Much better. Thank you. Tim riley talk 15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rising reputation

"After difficulties with the censor, who found the text too racy and politically suspect, Sapho was given at the Paris Opéra at the Salle Le Peletier on 16 April 1851" - two things. I wonder about racy? Will it be widely understood, and is it a little colloquial? "sexual" / "bawdy" / "salacious"? And then is there something missing - "the first performance of Sapho..."

Would you settle for "erotic"? (Be very careful how you answer that question). I'm not entirely sure "the first performance of" is needed, but it will do no harm. Looking forward to your next batch, but no hurry whatever. Tim riley talk 15:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would - in this context if no other! KJP1 (talk) 18:25, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Batch 2

Operatic successes and failures

"(Their daughter Jeanne (1863–1945) was born seven years later.)" - Hardly dare to critique grammar but does this sentence need to be bracketed?

I put the brackets in not for any grammatical reason but because there was a seven-year gap between the babies' births. and without brackets the chronology is put out. But I'm not frenziedly protective of them and will blitz if you or other reviewers press the point. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"satirical comedies in Graeco-Roman dress" - as a, very, non-specialist, I'm struggling to understand what these would be. The P&B article uses the term "mythological comedy", which I think I understand a bit more than "Graeco-Roman dress comedies". Any good?

Fine. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

London

"introduced Gounod to a singer and teacher called Georgina Weldon." - worth clarifying that Weldon was a "music teacher"?

Yes, indeed. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Music - Operas

""Most of the choruses I found imposing and simple in accent; the whole third act seemed to me very ..." - Is the Bizet quote missing a word? Very....what? Or is it "very...imposing and simple"? Which I agree you wouldn't want to repeat.

Indeed. Repaired. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Music - Songs

"which together constitute the classic qualities of French song" in songs" - the "song in songs" jars slightly for me. Replace the second with "works"/"ballads" or some such?

Tricky. I've changed to "mélodies", though that isn't ideal as there's an English "melodic" not long after, but still an improvement I think. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Note 7 - is the quote here missing its closing quote marks?

It was, but now isn't. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources - Books

Foreman, Lewis and Susan Foreman, London: A Musical Gazetteer - two things. Should Susan Foreman be Foreman, Susan, and I think the location's New Haven as opposed to Newhaven? Ignore the first if I'm wrong on MoS - I see you've other multiple authors presented this way.

Place name amended (well spotted!). Giving a co-author's name as First Second rather than Second, First is quite usual, think, and my normal practice, though the latter wouldn't distress me. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me. Another excellently researched, comprehensively cited, and beautifully written contribution. Look forward to supporting at FAC. KJP1 (talk) 07:36, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, KJ, for your thorough scrutiny and helpful suggestions. I shall reciprocate at the Hearst place in the next day or two. Tim riley talk 09:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Something else

sorry this is all in bits and pieces but as usual I have 1000 other things on at the same time. I suggest you may want to note specifically, in the 'music' section, the way in which (in the opinions of many) Gounod 'diluted' or at least diverted the tradition of French Grand Opera. E.g. In Rupert Christiansen's 'Prima Donna: A history' pp. 246-7: "In the nineteenth century, grand opera made fashionable loud, impassioned voices, like those of Cornelie Falcon....Only in the 1860s did a more maidenly style set in. Marie Miolan-Carvalho exemplified it, creating Marguerite in Gounod's Faust and title roles in his Roméo et Juliette and Mireille...." And see Steven Huebner's essay in the 'Cambridge Companion to Grand Opera', pp. 302-6. Having stirred things up, I'll now buzz off again. -- Smerus (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your stirrings are always as welcome as flowers that bloom in the spring. I'll enjoy looking further into this. Tim riley talk 22:11, 1 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

se also, for some neat comments on Gounod's opéra lyrique style, Taruskin, "Music in the 19th century", pp. 639-40.-- Smerus (talk) 12:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On my list for my next trip to the British Library. Thank you for the pointers. More anon. Tim riley talk 09:04, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copy editing by Jmar67

Reversion of "quote" template

This seemed like an improvement, but I was not aware it introduced excessive (?) white space. However, use of a colon to indent (as on talk pages) is deprecated by MOS:INDENTGAP for HTML reasons. Jmar67 (talk) 10:59, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It does on the screens of my two computers. I know not of HTML reasons, but will change back if it is firmly required. Tim riley talk 15:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC) Afterthought: I should have added that it was considerate of you to raise the matter on this page at this point, and I'm grateful. Tim riley talk 16:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Let me try an alternative method, and let me know. Jmar67 (talk) 01:14, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Block indent works well, so thanks. But I'm puzzled by your moving all the cites to before the quote. If you look at the 12 FAs listed at the top of this page I don't think, from memory, you'll find any that follow that layout. I don't know of any authority for such an unusual arrangement. Can you clarify, please? Tim riley talk 11:21, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relying on guidance at MOS:BLOCKQUOTE, but I will revert until I see how the quote template handles citations. Jmar67 (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Documentation for quote template says pre-quotation citation is "typical" but might not be appropriate in certain situations. I will leave as is. Jmar67 (talk)

Fair enough. Many thanks for your interest in this article. Tim riley talk 12:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SC

A marker for the moment. - SchroCat (talk) 14:40, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing PR

I'm closing the PR for the moment, and will follow up the outstanding leads suggested by Smerus. I may bring the article back to PR in the New Year en route to FAC. Thank you to those who have contributed this time round. Tim riley talk 20:31, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]