Wikipedia:Peer review/Central Troy Historic District/archive1

Central Troy Historic District

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for June 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because it's one of the best pieces of work I've ever done here. Everything has just fallen into place for this. It's everything I'd want this article to have and be. I ran it by the city's planning department; they love it and said there's nothing wrong. Wadester16 has improved on the original pictures I took considerably; he deserves some credit. I really feel like this could be an FA, and I'd like to start that process now.

Thanks, Daniel Case (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment by doncram Impressive-looking article that I have a bit of trouble getting into reading. For this to be a FA of wide interest, I'd want for the first sentence and first paragraph to establish what is particularly notable about this historic district. Has the district's significance been written about, in some historical review or tourism report, which could be quoted from? Perhaps I am looking for some degree of puffery up front, selling me towards reading the article. Currently the intro is factual and perhaps interesting in a Trivial Pursuit / DYK-factoid type way. I think it's in the first paragraph, that it is mentioned that it has such and such a size in acres and hectares (neither of which do I really understand, i would rather it was described in terms of approximate number of city blocks) and in number of structures. The action "verb" seems to be lacking, or you are unduly depending on the phrase "Historic District" which is in the name of the place. To say that it has 700 structures and that 5 former historic districts were merged into it, can be a bit off-putting in the intro. It makes me a bit afraid that you are going to make me as a reader, wade through your detailing everything about the history of the city departments detailing one district then another, before or instead of telling me about some more basic history that is worth preserving in historic districts. Do i really have to know about there being 5 predecessor districts, in the intro? It's like, in the intro, you are assuming the reader already has a strong interest in the area, and you are dispensing a wealth of info right away to satisfy that reader's interest. But I think you need to write for the reader who is not sure if he/she is interested, first. Perhaps something like: "The Central Troy Historic District is a (uniquely dense?) historic district which has been developed over 30 years to preserve an outstanding collection of architecture in an undisturbed setting of a truly important and influential city in American history". It has to be true, whatever is said, or if subjective it should be a quote from someone else saying it. But, in your own words, what is special about this historic district? Is it notable as a historic district for the quality and concentration of the architecture? For the breadth of history spanned within a 10 block area? Actually I know you are one of few wikipedia writers who would be qualified to have perspective about this HD vis-a-vis other HDs. I would rather, for an HD article, that you put yourself on the line with some upfront assertions about the importance or curious nature of this district, that you will then have to struggle to support with what you write in the rest of the article.

I am recalling your development of another historic district article (on New Bedford?) with an interesting long and eloquent quote from Melville; now i am expecting Melville-esquely spectacular writing from you every time. :) Maybe everything in the first several factual paragraphs are fine, but just need to be preceded by a different kind of general intro paragraph prefacing all that.

I'm also not sure about the listy, sentence fragments in later sections. Perhaps those should be written out into sentences. It is choppy, a bit hard to read, suffers a bit the same as the current intro in that it is packing a lot of info, but I am not sure i want to go through it. Sentence fragments make harder reading, as I have to put energy into interpreting them into sentences for myself. Hope these brief thoughts of a reaction nature are helpful. doncram (talk) 00:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I didn't use blocks because it's an irregularly-shaped area that cuts across some blocks, and some of those blocks are oddly shaped themselves. (In short, downtown Troy has no consistent block size the way larger cities like NY or Philly do). But your suggestion about the dry lede is well-taken, and perhaps I should put that NYT quote into the lede. I have been busy with off-line stuff, I will integrate all these suggestions later. Daniel Case (talk) 04:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The only, and very minor, problem I saw giving it a quick overview is one reference needs a non-breaking space (at least on the size of my browser) to keep it from hanging by itself. It might be a smart idea to put a non-breaking space on all the references just in case of future changes separating references from their sentences.Camelbinky (talk) 04:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Camelbinky comments and discussion

In a more detailed look at the article, I've noticed two things that should be added/expanded to the history of the area. One, more detail on the Troy Mall (today the Troy Atrium) and the "proposed arterial highway"- what highway was it, where would it have gone?; what did the mall destroy (I believe it replaced the old Union Station), did it in the short term reinvigorate the district, did it spur the growth of preservationist groups, and perhaps mentioning how the Troy Mall incorporated a historic building into its structure (I forget the name of the building, but its the one with the CVS in it). Some info on how John Hedley bought and renovated the Market Block Building at the corner of River and 3rd. I dont recall seeing info on RiverSpark. More could be said about the hulking Troy City Hall (how many city hall's are mortgaged by their city?) and the current plans to tear it down and build an office building and park. The controversy over the gay "porn palace" on River Street and how its historic marquee was torn down by the city. An article (Times Union I believe) on how there is an unusually high concentration on women-owned business's on River Street (the antique district section) might want to be mentioned as well.Camelbinky (talk) 23:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC) addendum- Proctors is no longer owned by RPI and they havent had plans to turn it into a hotel for quite some time. The current plans by the owners, which seem to have traction, are to demolish all but the facade and put a new office building in its place (similar to the current work at Wellington Row on State St in Albany). This should be updated in the article. A search of the archives at the Times Union website and the Albany Business Review of articles dealing with the individual historic properties might be beneficial. Also, Temple Berith Sholom is mentioned several times as a contributing property, but according to the map it does not fall within the boundaries of the district, is there a reason for this? The temple is at Division and Fourth and is not at the address on 3rd St mentioned in this article. It is several blocks south of where the district ends at Adams Street according to the map in the article, and the temple is in South Troy, not downtown.Camelbinky (talk) 00:08, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The Industrialization & etc subsection of the History section mentions that the turnpike to Schenectady is today the "concurrent" section of Route 2 and 7 west from Colonie. NY 2 and NY 7 are not concurrent. The current route of NY 2 west of Troy used to be NY 7 prior to "Alternate" 7 (the current NY Route 7) being constructed in the 80's. Today 2 starts (or ends) at the Exit 6 interchange of I-87, Troy-Schenectady Road continues west past that point as Route 7 but there is no concurrency of the two NY route numbers on the one road. Prior to Alt-7, NY 2 turned left from Congress down 4th Street and crossed the Menands Bridge (was two-way street at time), Route 7 turned left from Hoosick to River St., left onto first at the Rice Building, then a right onto Congress, over the Cong. St. Br. to Watervliet and on.Camelbinky (talk) 01:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

As I read more of the article I see more left out- no mention of the huge amount of Tiffany glass in the churches or the Troy Public Library or that Washington Park is only one of two privately owned parks in the state of NY. For references on these facts see the Architecture section of Capital District article. If no one objects I'll just go ahead and be bold and start adding/changing the article with all this info. I also have to mention a mistake on my part, the Temple Berith Sholom IS on Third Street, I made the mistake when trying (in my head) to figure out what street it was on by trying to remember which direction the traffic flows on it but I started counting First Street as going north, which is wrong, which makes 3rd St south not north, MY FAULT OOPS! But dont let that slip make anyone ignore the rest of my comments or suggestions please. The official website for the congregation does not mention it being the oldest reform synagogue in the state, it states it is the oldest synagogue in continous use as a synagogue in the state. The statement it is the oldest reform synagogue can be challenged for when it was built it was not a reform temple, the Reform ritual was not adopted by this congregation until 20 years later. As a member of this congregation I truly believe that in case of a conflict statements supported by the congregation itself are more authoritative and correct than statements made by an outsider writing up a NRHP document or whatever and who is more likely things wrong than the people who actually own the building.Camelbinky (talk) 22:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, RS would tell you to go with the independent statement, although since the independent statement is actually more extraordinary than the non-independent one, maybe we should change the wording and include the stuff from the congregation's website. You might want to consult with Historicist; he does a lot of synagogue history stuff and has some great offline sources (in fact, it was he who created the Berith Sholom article).

I was wrong about 7 and 2 no longer overlapping; I'll fix that.

As for the Tiffany glass, I think the article about the library is best suited for that. That's what we have articles about indidividual buildings for.

I went with the most recent info I could find about Proctor's; but here's a Schenectady Gazette editorial and this site. OK, I will update the article; I hadn't known about this.

I'd love pointers to sources for that other stuff, even offline ones if you have them. As for Troy's City Hall, it was purposely excluded from the district (I think the NRHP nom even mentions this) so it's not discussed here even if it does front on Monument Square.

That early 1970s stuff would be nice if you can point me to sources ... the NRHP nom sort of skids over that era. But I'd like to have more if I can get it. The Troy daily newspaper's website does not keep much archived online and, frankly, it was of no use when researching this article. Daniel Case (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: Actually, this article in the Troy Record indicates that RPI still owns the theater. Daniel Case (talk) 04:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what I get for writting from my memory and not double checking first! It seems Proctor's is a partnership of the city, Columbia Development, and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute according to this, which I prefer the Times Union over the Troy Record even for things in Troy (that's a discussion for our talk pages if you want to hear why, but the fact that the TU keeps EVERYTHING (and from the Albany Argus) from 1986 to today archived forever is one reason even farther back for obits). Anything you need a source for let me know which stuff and I'll have it for you. Do you have any idea what the highway that the article mentions was going to go through the area? The two I can think of is the original plans for I-88 (but later the plans became Alternate 7 with the limited access part truncated at 8th) had the interstate being built over Hoosick St. but that wouldnt have affected the historic district, the other highway I can think of it might be mentioning is that I-787 was originally supposed to be on the Rensselaer side of the Hudson and go up to Troy but I have never seen any plans for it going THROUGH Troy, only have seen artist's renditions of it along Rensselaer (city). What 1970's stuff do you need? I can get sources for the Union Station stuff prior to the Troy Mall/Atrium being built. The former routes of NY 2 and 7 unfortunately the only source I have for that is a "Map of Albany, Troy, Colonie, Rensselaer and Cohoes New York" that was published by Champion Map Corporation but is not dated anywhere on the map, but is clearly from before 1976 because the Empire State Plaza, freebie 90 after Everett Road, 787 north of Dunn Memorial Bridge, Alt. 7, and the proposed 687 are all still labelled as proposed. Without a date anywhere on the map I dont know how to use it as a verifiable source short of scanning the map and somehow putting it on here. I have reference for Wash. Park as one of only two private parks in the state on the CD article. Is the porn palace on River St in the district (sorry I keep calling it that, I dont recall the original name of the movie theater and that's how my friend refers to it, the barber shop she owns is technically part of the same building but separate entrance). If it would be beneficial to the article I have a reference from the TU on hits sign being taken down and the controversy over the city taking it down because it was the historic sign for the theater. I can have a source on John Hedley and the Market Block if that would be beneficial to add to the article. Reference 46 seems to be a dead link, do you have a replacement?Camelbinky (talk) 05:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Further addendum: the claim about Washington Park comes from their own website. RS says we should discount such potentially self-serving claims unless we find indepdendent verification. I knew there was a reason I hadn't used that. Daniel Case (talk) 05:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Now for the rest. All I just need to say is that it's the current route of Route 2 ... its past is irrelevant to the article because it's outside downtown. The porn palace might be on northern River Street ... what was its address? The Union Station stuff, anything on early preservation efforts (which are alluded to but not discussed in the various noms) I don't know about the highway ... back then they had all sort of plans for these arterials for every city in the state, just about (see Newburgh's. Many of the unbuilt ones have no relationship to existing road schemes. Daniel Case (talk) 05:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Note 46 comes through OK for me ... might be a missing browser plug-in. Daniel Case (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Ref 46  Works for me –Juliancolton | ^Talk 05:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Yea, 46 works for me now too, I guess it was just a problem with my browser for some reason, sorry! The porn palace is on the right side of River St., across from the Market Block, my friend's barber shop (Jen's Barber Shop) is listed as 285 River St. and its a part of the same building but I'm not sure if they use different addresses. I was just curious about the "proposed arterial" because I wasnt sure what the article was referring to and I'm very interested in unbuilt roads/highways. For Washington Park would this be acceptable? A good place to find photos and info would be the Images of America series of books, there has been at least one written on Troy. Google books I believe has a partial view of it, but the pages they show might still have good info on things like the old Union Station.Camelbinky (talk) 06:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

This from the Times Union states "Washington Park in Troy is one of only two private residential urban parks in New York state". It is 10 years old though, would it still be acceptable?Camelbinky (talk) 07:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure. I'll use it. Daniel Case (talk) 17:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, this might be enough notability to justify a separate article on the park, not the former HD around it. What's the other one? Anybody know? Daniel Case (talk) 17:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the 2/7 thing, and realized why I made the mistake. That's what the nom said, and when it was written in the mid-80s the two routes were indeed concurrent. Daniel Case (talk) 18:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The other private park must be Gramercy Park in Manhattan, it is the only other private urban park I can think of. Yea, the concurancy of 2 and 7 did occur for a very short time when the limited access part of Route 7 was labelled as "Alternate Route 7" and there is also the confusion of the little green square emergency markers on Route 2 from I-87 to Watervliet still having 7 on the top instead of 2, basically because it would just be too expensive to change them out.Camelbinky (talk) 20:30, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I also thought about Gramercy Park as being a salient urban, New York State private park example, but I could not remember its name. Thanks, Camelbinky! It is very well known because it is separated by roadway from all buildings, if i recall correctly, and it is fenced/gated, and only the surrounding 20 or so buildings' residents have keys, supposedly. However, there are certainly thousands of urban "parks" on the inside of NYC blocks in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, etc., where multiple buildings' residents get access to a common area. It depends on how you define what is an urban park. Do you want to define it to include only blatant, semi-obnoxious, widely publicly-known situations like the Gramercy Park one, or the many situations that involve 10 or more buildings having access, or what. There is no commonly accepted definition of what is an urban private park, and there is no general way to determine how many there are. doncram (talk) 10:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the wikipedia Gramercy Park article provides references about another NYC urban private park in Sunnyside, Queens. There are at least 3 in NYS then, contrary to all website claims (plus perhaps thousands more, depending on your definition). doncram (talk) 10:23, 24 June 2009 (UTC)