Wikipedia:Peer review/Born to Run/archive1

Born to Run

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This peer review discussion is closed.

I've listed this article for peer review because... I'm planning on taking this to FAC and would like some more input before I do.

Thanks, – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Zmbro: This has been open for over a month without comment. Are you still interested in receiving comments? Z1720 (talk) 19:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. I checked the other day and noticed quite a few other PRs listed under the FAC sidebar haven't had any activity, which is odd. I'll probably reach out to individual editors for comment. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 19:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

This is a very exhaustively researched and impressive article but needs some polish

lead

linking perfectionism is unnecessary.

arduous sessions with the E Street Band; recording sessions.."arduous" is vague, and "sessions" x 2

Early radio play generated anticipation... state which stations/DJ's...". Instead of "generated anticipation" maybe "built expectations"

"encompasses genres from rock and roll and pop rock to power pop and R&B" - was influenced by rock and roll, pop rock, power pop (?) and R&B. " genres" is an internet term that didn't exist in the 70s...use "styles" if you have to

"The album's lyrics focus on characters who feel trapped" - The lyrics detail characters trapped..." (way too many plurals in the current wording)

All above fixed

"They are also more wide-reaching and less tied to the New Jersey area than his previous work". What?

scrapped "more wide-reaching". It makes sense in the body but I agree it makes less sense here.

"Accompanied by an expensive promotional campaign" * Supported by..."

reaching the top ten in three others. Three other states or charts?

Reworded so it makes more sense

A large media hype surrounded the album's release - promo hype is not A Thing (ie was hyped), and supports not surrounds.

Not done yet – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had forgotten about this one. I changed it to "The album's release received extensive publicity, leading..." Later on in media hype and backlash I changed the opening sentence to the similar "Springsteen attracted extensive publicity around the time of the album's release." Let me know if I need to make further changes Ceoil – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Born to Run revitalized Springsteen's career and made him a star - Born to Run became Springsteen's breakthrough album having lagged...etc ("made him a star") is not approate phrasing).

Changed to the simpler 'was Springsteen's breakthrough album'.

Retrospectively, the album is widely regarded - Today (or over the following decades)..."the album (has become) is widely regarded as Ceoil (talk) 05:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Critical reception

Why does Reviewers praised the vocal performances,[198][199] music,[200][201][202][203] and production.[196] need so many cites

I essentially cited every source that praised each item (there were four for music). I can group them into a note or can just remove a few – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Group into a note. Ceoil (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

also positively compared by critics to Springsteen's previous albums - earlier albums. "positively compared"?

From the source: "[Pareles] offered an insightful take on the change from the first two albums..." Maybe change the sentence to something like "Compared to Springsteen's earlier albums, critics felt..."? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

yes, much better. Ceoil (talk) 18:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

"signaled out" the lyrics "being more" - eek. Given the praise for the albums is so much based on wordmanship, this kind of phrasing could be tightened

how about "who felt the lyrics were more accessible..."? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect. Ceoil (talk) 18:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done

same with phrases with "hailed Springsteen as a visionary destined to save the rock genre" - hyperbole from an era when popular rock criticism was in its infancy

Remove entirely? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 17:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Replace with a clearer and more insightful quote. Ceoil (talk) 18:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Too many quotes in this section, and overall reduce the amount of times you use the word "also".

Still reading through...enjoying v. much, but may be a few days before get back to it. Hopefully these are helpful. Ceoil (talk) 06:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Music and lyrics

Similar to above...The music on Born to Run ~~encompasses~~ includes styles such as....

Done

I don't like the term "Power pop" in general, which seems a very modern and fancy construct (the linked article's leads mentions the Who, the Beatles, the Beach Boys and the Byrds, using allmusic and the AV Club as sources) when simply mid-1960s pop would do...which you correctly say a few sentences later - "The sound is primarily rooted in pop and rock traditions of the early-to-mid 1960s"

so remove "power pop" from the article entirely? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would, as said its redundant given you anchor the sound to solidly in the "pop and rock traditions of the early-to-mid 1960s" claim. Frankly its a jarring, confusing, latterly made up term. Ceoil (talk) 21:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed all instances. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:11, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It typically incorporates melodic hooks - The album incorporates
His desire for a Phil Spector-type Wall of Sound production meant multiple instruments were assigned to each track on the studio's 16-track mixing console. You can't record multiple takes on a single analogue channel....presumably separate recordings were bounced down. Maybe "aimed for" rather than "desired"
each new overdub made the process harder,[20] making mixing difficult.[28] Made the recording and mixing more difficult.[20][28]

Done

Ceoil (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background and development

Both were critically acclaimed but sold poorly.[1][2][3] - once again overcited. Rather than linking to three press articles, can you find a book source that says just this. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 01:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Record Plant

March 1975t needs 3 cites & a footnote somehow? From that level of citation I assume the exact date as given is dodgy.

I found that it was kind of dodgy, as one said February, another said April, and three said March. I wasn't sure what to do so I went with the month that was sourced the most. and I can't use winter or spring because of WP:SEASON. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Landau helped Springsteen regain focus and direction with a fresh perspective - what does this mean - was Springsteenlacking confidence, unsure of the musical style, distracted? I know you say next "Things had fallen down internally. He got things on their feet again." but you are basically bolting two sources together and making an unclear conclusion. Appel disliked Landau's presence and viewed him as a threat to his authority - "disliked Landau's presence" is hopelessly vague, "a threat to his authority"...is this south park? Better due to "production differences" (which were likely (IMO) either arising from song structure or wrt sound)

The last paragraph in the prior section clarifies: "Springsteen felt he lacked direction,[46] and he requested production advice from writer and producer Jon Landau,..." Almost all the sources I have went into great depth into Landau's background and his relation to Springsteen so I wanted to give a brief summary of that. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that sentence and changed it to "Appel and Landau had disagreements on production choices." although coming immediately before "The two producers had opposing views, which Springsteen met in the middle of." that might be derivative/superfluous... Let me know if I need to make further changes. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The two producers had opposing views you said this already, but unclearly....which Springsteen met in the middle of '...ungrammatical.

I had failed to read this before answering the last bullet :-\ I removed the first bit and changed the last bit to " which Springsteen had to resolve" although I don't think that conveys what trying to be said... – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These sessions were engineered by Jimmy Iovine; Louis Lahav was unavailable due to family commitments.[58] Iovine had recently engineered Lennon's Rock 'n' Roll album (1975).[47]- punctuation could be tightened, "Iovine as Louis", ~~due to family commitments~~ etc Ceoil (talk) 21:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Louis Lahav was unavailable due to family commitments so these sessions were engineered by Jimmy Iovine,[58] who had recently engineered Lennon's Rock 'n' Roll album (1975).[47]" How's that look?

Springsteen struggled with his overdubs and completing the writing...I assume writing the lyrics, as Landau it seems had a good handel on the music, but can u say so pls.

Clarified it was both lyrics and arrangements

Its always better to reduce the volume of quotes, and In the words of authors Philippe Margotin and Jean-Michel Guesdon, "Springsteen's perfectionism bordered on madness" seems unnecessary; would go with "Springsteen obsessively labored over and often spent hours revising single lines". Then again hours seems weak. At his level it wouldn't surprise if he had lines in the back of his head that he perfected lines over years. Then again, dunno his typical writing technique.

Trimmed the quote. Yeah I felt the same way. The sources seemed to act like it was a major deal (and to be fair spending hours on one line would waste studio time) so I figured it was important enough to include. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Misunderstood: if he was tortuously wasting studio time agonising over lyrics, then would certainly paraphrase that. Ceoil (talk) 07:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are just more quibbles, am impressed at the fact gathering; it's really interesting to read. As a request, would like more focus on Garry Tallent, one of my all time favourite bassists. Ceoil (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil Thank you! Yeah unfortunately there wasn't much info from Tallent I found from this period that was worth keeping. I managed to use a quote of his in The River's article, but the same can't be said for Born to Run and Darkness.... – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will give another run through next weekend; article is looking good, and looking fwd to the article on Born in the USA getting a spin. Re Tallent, all I hear on the lead singles from these albums is his driving and mind-bending bass sound; the fact that his work is so prominent / high in the mix is surely mentioned in a number of sources? Ceoil (talk) 05:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm good with the responses to here. Ceoil (talk) 21:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Query from Z1720

@Zmbro: It has been over a month since this PR has received a comment. Is this ready to be closed an nominated at WP:FAC? Z1720 (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let me ping Ceoil to see if they have any more comments. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to add more reviews to make it more comprehensive. Liangyiqiao2004 (talk) (UTC)

In what way? Liangyiqiao2004 – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 16:49, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]