Wikipedia:Peer review/Bat'leth/archive1

Bat'leth

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I wanted to get some feedback on the article I managed to turn from redirect to a 6,000+ character article with limited sources. It already has a DYK credit and I wanted to get some feedback in view of future improvements or maybe even a GA.

Thanks, The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:01, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments First, as a fan of ST:TNG, I'm super happy to see someone take this topic on. Overall, it's a nice article; don't let the length of my comments detract from that. I almost always have a ton of comments on every article I review.

Lead:

• Nice image. Why the explicit size restriction? 150px is too small, imo. Obviously, if we had a picture of one of the replicas mentioned in the article, it would be even better, and a video demonstration of a martial artist using one, as described in the article would be best of all, but you probably know that already and would include such a thing if you had it. Just a thought for ways to further develop the article.
  • If we find some free use images or video, we can add them later. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:54, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
• If bat'leth isn't capitalized in the rest of the article, it shouldn't be in the lead.
• I would split that opening sentence into two sentences. One should say what a bat'leth is and the other, who created it.
• You should probably clarify that the Klingons are a race of people in the Star Trek universe for the unenlightened reader who isn't familiar with that.
• The lead says the bat'leth is an iconic image of Star Trek. The body says its creator considers it an iconic image of the franchise. I suggest going with the latter in the lead, too. It's to POV-ish to claim that it is, since that's probably always going to be a matter of opinion.
• "Replicas are widely available" doesn't tell us much. Are they available worldwide? In certain countries? In certain parts of certain countries? In the body, it seems to refer to the diversity of store types that sell them. I'd try to clean this up.

History:

• Again, I'd split this first sentence in two, with one sentence talking about why Curry created the bat'leth and another talking about his inspiration, the Chinese fighting crescent. Also, is there any appropriate article we can link "Chinese fighting crescent" to? It's not a weapon I'm familiar with.
• "It consists of a curved blade ... with handholds along the centre of the sword's back." I'd try to be consistent as to whether we call this a blade or a sword. To me, blade seems most appropriate.
• "It consists of a curved blade with spiked protrusions at both ends and with handholds along the centre of the sword's back, and is approximately five feet long. The handholds are used to twist and spin the blade rapidly; the weapon can be used with either one or both hands." The ideas in these sentences seem oddly-grouped to me. Suggested rewrite: "It consists of a curved blade, approximately five feet long, with spiked protrusions at both ends. Handholds along the centre of the blade's back allow the wielder to twist and spin it rapidly. The weapon can be used with either one or both hands."
• "Curry, a martial artist, also developed an appropriate fighting style similar to t'ai chi for the use of the weapon." Suggest dropping "appropriate" from this sentence as mildly POV. Also, pipe "t'ai chi" to "t'ai chi ch'uan" to avoid the redirect.
• "In 1995, Curry developed a smaller version of the bat'leth, the 'mek'leth'" Do we know what year he developed the bat'leth, so we have a frame of reference?
• "The bat'leth appeared in 29 television episodes across the Star Trek franchise and was also used in the 1994 film Star Trek: Generations. In addition to the Deep Space Nine television series, the mek'leth appears in the 1996 film Star Trek: First Contact." This seems to me to fit better in the Canon section.
• "Bat'leths have also led to martial arts teams being founded to try to develop a distinct martial art using the bat'leth." Bat'leths themselves didn't lead to anything. Either the development of the bat'leth or, more likely, the rise in popularity of the bat'leth or the widespread production of bat'leth replicas led to the formation of dedicated martial arts teams.
• The article mentions that Curry developed a fighting style for the bat'leth. Why, then are others trying to develop one? Do we know?
• Possibly consider moving this to the Outside Star Trek section, especially if you can expand upon it at all. Maybe give examples of such teams, when they formed, where they are based, what types of events they perform at, etc. Have any of them gained any recognition worthy of mention in the martial arts community?

Canon: *I suggest opening this section with "According to Star Trek canon," or something of that ilk, then not mentioning the words "Star Trek" or "canon" again in the section. The reader should understand that everything that follows is "according to Star Trek canon". The frequent mentions of it in this section really impair the readability.

• "The original bat'leth was referred to as the Sword of Kahless." You can drop this, as it appears later in the section and flows better there.
• "The word "bat'leth" itself translates as "Sword of Honour" in the Klingon language." Suggest dropping "itself" as unnecessary. Also suggest moving this to the third paragraph of this section, after the first sentence. Such a move would also allow you to drop "in the Klingon language" from this sentence.
• "the very first bat'leth was forged in around 625 A.D." A little surprised to see the designation "A.D." here, since presumably the Klingons don't count their years in the same way we do on earth. Could we say something like "was forged around the Earth-equivalent of 625 A.D." without it sounding too awkward?
• If you choose to adopt the suggestions immediately above, the first sentence of the section could read something like, "According to Star Trek canon, the Klingon Kahless forged the first bat'leth around the Earth-equivalent of 625 A.D." Notice that I changed it to active voice as well.
• "He is stated to have" Stated by whom? Better to say something like "Klingon [lore/legend/mythology/tradition] holds that"
• "He is then said to have" Shorten to "He then". We already know that this is according to canon or Klingon lore. Also drop "to have" later in the sentence for consistency.
• "Kahless is said to have used" Again, shorten to "Kahless used".
• "and in doing so to have united Qo'noS, the Klingon homeworld." Shorten to "uniting the Klingon homeworld."
• "was later stolen by an invading Star Trek species called the Hur'q." Suggest revising as "was stolen by a species called the Hur'q during their invasion of Qo'noS." The information about the bat'leth in List of weapons in Star Trek mentions that the Hur'q are believed to be extinct, and the article The Sword of Kahless is about a DS9 episode in which the artifact is recovered and ultimately beamed into space. These seem like facts that should be added to this article.
• "In Star Trek canon, bat'leths are made of a reinforced metal called baakonite." We really shouldn't have a one-sentence paragraph. Can we combine this with an extant paragraph, or find some more information to expand it with?

Outside Star Trek:

• "Among those who display one is Ron Moore, who has worked on both Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica." Where does he display it? In his office? As he carries it down the street?
• "However, due to the dangers of real bat'leths, there are no official or licenced replica versions of the weapon." Checking the source, I see this is nearly a direct quote from the official Star Trek web site. We should just throw quotes around it and say where it came from. That also answers the question of who would make it "official" or "licensed".
• The next three paragraphs all involve criminal charges associated with bat'leth replicas. They seem to belong in the Legality section to me.
• "This sword is sometimes referred to by the media as a "double-pointed Klingon crescent-shaped sword",[18] a "Klingon-type sword",[18] a "Star Trek Klingon-type sword"[19] or as a "double-pointed scimitar"." If this sentence stays with the crimes information, I would try to put it near the beginning or the end of the section and say something like "Media reports documenting instances of replica bat'leths being used in alleged crimes have referred to the weapon as a "double-pointed Klingon crescent-shaped sword", a "Klingon-type sword", a "Star Trek Klingon-type sword" or a "double-pointed scimitar"."
• Really having a hard time figuring out how a bat'leth was helpful to folks involved in Medicare fraud, but I'm assuming we don't have those details. A shame; it would be interesting to know.
• "A stainless steel bat'leth was once said to be" Said by whom?
• It would be nice to have more details about how, if at all, the bat'leth was used in the TV episodes mentioned. If they were just scenery, that doesn't seem worth mentioning to me, especially if the only source is IMDB, which I wouldn't really consider a reliable source anyway.

Legality:

• I would turn the first sentence into two, breaking it at the conjunction "and".
• "The miniature bat'leth was described as "most horrendous"" by whom?
• The choices of New Jersey and Colorado as states used to comment on the legality of the bat'leth in the U.S. seems random until you realize that these were the sites of the two crimes mentioned earlier. Yet another reason to bring that content here instead.

Overall, was an enjoyable read. It had to be difficult to find reliable sources for, I'd imagine. If possible, I would try to expand it with notable uses of the bat'leth in the series, such as Worf teaching his son Alexander to use one and Worf killing Duras with one. I'd be happy to comment on this again after you have made some revisions, and I'll watchlist this review so I can react to your responses. Would really love to see it make at least GA one day. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 18:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing this. I can understand removing a number of the words as I had just put them in there to make up the characters to appease those at DYK. (which annoyingly didn't get 5,000 views!) The sources I have here were the only reliable one that I could find as the rest regarding it were all forums. The reason why I did use IMDB was because most Star Trek episode articles have it so I'd assume that it's been passed as acceptable. You probably could find a video of someone twirling it on youtube or somewhere else but I'm not that good with uploading files. I have made a few adjustments based on your suggestions. I hope I can get it to GA soon. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Have you consulted the folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek for additional references and ideas about expanding the article? If not, you might drop a line on the project talk page about this PR and see if you get any feedback. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:54, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I have left a message on the project. Since then I have tried to do a a few more of the suggestions so you may want to take another look as it does appear that a few missed being striked. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 06:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully the project members can help decide what other relevant information may belong here. Nice use of the {{cite episode}} template for citations. I hope to have some time to look for a few sources myself in the not-too-distant future. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:22, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I wish you good luck as I found it to be hard to even find any reliable sources. Regarding that potential inclusion of quotes about the replicas of the bat'leths, I've looked on the Star Trek website and can't seem to find the article that the newspaper referred to so I think that that avenue is not avaliable, which is why I just put Curry or Paramount at the end. Actually I think I might have done a few of the issues that have been left unchecked. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 14:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Being WP:BOLD, I did some pretty substantial reorganization on the article, but changed very little of the content. See what you think. After that, I'll see which, if any, of my comments are still outstanding. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 12:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Seems OK to me. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:24, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that more or less gets everything, then. I think this will stand a good chance of this making GA pretty soon. As I'm able, I'll continue to look for ways to improve and expand the article. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 12:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

In searching for some more material to use when expanding this article, I ran across this: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/batleth. There are some pretty serious close paraphrasing concerns here.

• From the Wikipedia article: "According to Star Trek canon, the Klingon Kahless forged the first bat'leth around the Earth-equivalent of 625 A.D. Klingon mythology holds that he dropped a lock of his hair into the lava from inside a volcano known as the Kri'stak Volcano, then plunged the fiery lock into a lake known as "the lake of Lursor" and twisted it to form a blade. After forging the weapon, Kahless used it to defeat a tyrant named Molor, uniting Qo'noS, the Klingon homeworld."
• From the website above: "Klingon oral history has it that the first bat'leth was forged around 625 A.D. (Terran equivalent) by Kahless the Unforgettable. Kahless dropped a lock of his hair into the lava from the Kri'stak Volcano, and then plunged the fiery lock into the lake of Lursor and twisted it to form a blade. After forging the weapon, he used it to defeat the tyrant Molor, and in doing so united the Klingon Homeworld."

The wording was even closer before some of my edits. This should not pass GA until this issue is cleared up. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 16:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I see. I have tried to change some of the words to try and avoid that being an issue as I'm not sure how to rearrange that so that it makes at least some linear sense. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Rewriting to avoid close paraphrasing is tough, especially when sources are limited. I've had to do it myself from time to time. I don't think the simple substitution of synonyms was enough. I've done some more modification. See what you think. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 13:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

That looks good to me. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)