Wikipedia:Peer review/30th South African Music Awards/archive1

30th South African Music Awards

Looking forward to taking this piece to FL. Suggestions of any kind will be highly appreciated. dxneo (talk) 20:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Elias

For your gracious review of Snooze @dxneo, here are some comments I have for the article. I vaguely remember you requested help from me (?) for a Tyla-related page, which I regrettably never got to, so consider this as redemption Elias / PSA 🏕️🪐 ^{[please make some noise]} 07:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Overall, this article is very rough around the edges, and as such, I have several comments:

Lead/General comments

• All tables must have captions
• There are some parts in the article where a hyphen is used instead of an en dash - please find and replace them all
• In the lead, do not link a word in boldface
• "It honoured the best music videos, artists and songs released in South Africa" this reads oddly to me. Assuming "released" also applies to "music videos", that would mean "artists" is also described as "released in South Africa" ?

Good point, that's kind of what they said on the PDF. I actually do think it applies to music video since some videos are not televised around here, and obviously no, I don't think this applies to the artists. Suggestions?

• "With the nominations announced on 26 September, Tyla received" dangling modifier; change to "The nominations were announced on 26 September. Tyla received the most, with seven, followed..."
• "Tyla was the night's biggest winner" sounds a bit journalese - is there an alternative way to phrase it?
• "The ceremony received negative criticism from viewers on Twitter." doesn't feel lead-worthy to me; also, mentioning fan reception is generally unnecessary.

Background

• The section lacks cohesion and paragraphs need to be split. Consider adding newlines after the "value-added tax" phrase and "Kabza de Small with six"
• "Celebrating the best music videos, artists and songs released in South Africa during the period 15 April 2023 to 14 April 2024" this should be rewritten and made the topic sentence (first sentence) of the background section because it states exactly what the awards ceremony is.

Good point.

• Why bury the lead and tell readers the date of the awards night at the final paragraph? This should ideally be a detail on one of the first sentences of the Background section.
• The sentence structures of the final paragraph are repetitive; vary it a little to avoid monotony.

Hmm… I actually didn't think anyone would notice this, but it's probably because there were other events that came before the main event. Thank you for picking that.

• "the entry fee for an individual or entity" is the "for an individual or entity" necessary? I'd imagine both are already covered by "members"
• The second sentence of the background section is clunky and vague, and I suggest rewriting. From my understanding, the R862.50 / R4600.00 entry fee is for entering the awards ceremony itself and not the individual nominations? And the VAT applies regardless of RiAS membership?

No, the entry is not for the ceremony, it's for nominations. Honestly, I was actually amazed when I found out that most (if not all) awards organizations (Grammys, VMAs and so on) do not pay the winners, because this has been happening since the beginning of time in South Africa. That's why I ended up adding the prizes and entry fees. For an artist to he considered for nomination of the South African Music Awards, they must pay a non-refundable entry fee for that individual nomination. Hope this makes sense.

• The way the digits of "R4600.00" are grouped is going to mess up screen readers; suggest using a comma instead of a space or use {{gaps}}
• "where the ceremony was set to take place" trim to "would take place"
• Unless I'm missing something, "am" or "a.m." are the correct spellings and not "a.m"
• "the organization announced" which one?

Performances

• Per MOS:COLHEAD, "do not place column headers in the middle of a table to visually separate the table." My suggestion is to add a "Performance" column before "Artist(s)" and move the contents of the headers there; an alternative would be to remove the headers entirely because I am unsure if indicating "Performance 1" "Performance 2" is needed. I leave the discretion to you

Thought it be more specific and precise that way.

• What song(s) did Ihashi Elimhlophe perform?

Presenters

• "same venue" The venue you're referring to is mentioned way back up the article, so I suggest specifying the venue
• "Meanwhile, South African..." no need for meanwhile + in attendance of what?
• "Minnie Dlamini introduced Zanele Potelwa and later introduced Nondumiso Ngobese" for parallelism, I recommend changing to "Minnie Dlamini – introduced Zanele Potelwa and Nondumiso Ngobese"

Winners

• How is "super categories" written on the official awards website/in reliable secondary sources? IMV the space should not be there or be replaced by a hyphen

I got the categories from the SAMA 30 PDF (cited somewhere in the article). The categories do not have any kind dash or hyphen.

• I found and fixed some typos spread throughout the article. Still, I recommend double- or triple-checking if all the names for the nominees are spelled correctly and consistently.
• Be consistent with whether or not you add commas after "featuring" and the word "and" before the last credited artist for each entry

Special awards

• For the first four listed awards, why are the winners styled with center-align, as opposed to the last cell?

Thought it would look better that way. Is there a reason for change and should I?

• I don't see a reason to bold those aforementioned winners considering there were no other listed nominees

Response

• Question - how many RS specifically argued "Water" was snubbed? Peers or just regular people saying a work was snubbed is a pretty routine, subjective thing. Details like this one should be included on the article only if several music publications, not just one or a few musicians, make this claim. A valid example of inclusion would be the AoTY Grammy snub for SOS which was argued extensively by so many music critics to the point SZA had to respond to the media buzz.

This is kind of funny 'cause I don't think Tyla would ever respond to the South Africans if they come for her. Anyway, multiple publications called it a snub. If it was only one, I wouldn't have included the reaction.

• "After the South African Music Awards had Arthur Mafokate and Cici perform at the same event despite their 2018 assault allegations, Cici expressed her feelings on Twitter the following day when she tweeted three brokenhearted emojis." the wording is clunky. For example, the structure implies Cici also allegedly assaulted someone.

That was intentional since Mafokate also countered Cici's charges. Didn't wanna go into detail and off-topic.

• Avoid contractions like "should've" and informal phrases like "took to Twitter"
• Be consistent with verb tenses
• "many noted" define many?

Most/multiple (viewers and Twitter users)

• "upcoming South African concert" unclear what this means
• "they celebrated" who is "they"

References

• Refs look reliable enough
• Keep the capitalization style in your source titles consistent; avoid using all-caps as well
• Where applicable, add archive links

I swear this cyber attack on Wayback Machine is gonna drive me insane. I'll try to archive them all later.

PSA, everything has been addressed unless where stated. Thank you so much for the review. I'm indebted to you. dxneo (talk) 03:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Medxvo

• My first suggestion is to check some other FLs and compare between them and this article, to avoid some minor issues like linking the Awards name in boldface
• "Best Collaboratiion" - I think that should be "Best Collaboration"
• There are multiple incidents of WP:CONSECUTIVECITE and WP:REPCITE and I have fixed them myself now
• Is there a rationale behind using the lavender background? The other SAMA ceremonies used the #EEDD82 background

No reason at all. Yellow is kind of ugly haha. However, I don't think it's a problem though, even the 30th Annual Grammy Awards and the 66th are different.

I don't really know if there is a guideline for this or if the reviewers at the FLC would comment on this so I thought I should point it out now so you won't be surprised later if anyone points this out. Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "It honoured the best music videos, artists and songs" - What about the albums?

Good catch, thank you so much.

• "Tyla was the most nominated artist with seven nominations, followed by Kabza de Small with six" - The Sunday World source says five for Tyla and four for Kabza so I'm a bit confused?

Public voting categories (2) were announced a month before the rest of the nominees. They were both nonimees of the public voting categories, Tyla then landed five and Kabza landed four.

Then you might want to add a source or a footnote to pack this up/explain it before a FLC nomination, because the source reviewer at the FLC might not pass this. I just made this edit which I hope helped more, and feel free to change it or remove it. Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Tyla was the night's biggest winner, receiving four awards (Newcomer of the Year, Best Pop Album, Female Artist of the Year and International Achievement), and Kabza de Small received three awards alongside Mthunzi. In the top five categories, Kabza de Small and Mthunzi's Isimo won Album of the Year and Duo or Group of the Year; Tyla's self-titled studio album won the aforementioned Newcomer of the Year and Female Artist of the Year; and uGatsheni took home Male Artist of the Year. The ceremony received negative criticism from viewers on Twitter" - my suggestion is: "Tyla received the most awards with four, including Newcomer of the Year and Female Artist of the Year for her self-titled studio album. Kabza de Small and Mthunzi received three awards each, including Album of the Year and Duo or Group of the Year for their album Isimo, while uGatsheni took home Male Artist of the Year" .... I'm here particularly referencing the style of other FL-Award-articles, including 74th Primetime Emmy Awards

Problem is that Kabza and Mthunzi did receive "each", all three awards were for a collaborative studio album. This suggestion also erase the "top five categories" prose. I've tweaked it a bit, but I'd like to keep it like that.

It looks good now! Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "were open from 1 March 2024 to 14 April" - 14 April or 15 April?

I'm lost here, please explain.

"Entries for nomination consideration were open from 1 March 2024 to 14 April" - I think the source says 15 April not 14 April. Am I wrong? Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "at 20:00 p.m South Africa Standard Time" - check MOS:TIMEZONE, my suggestion is: "at 20:00 South Africa Standard Time (UTC+02:00)"
• My suggestion for the background section is to have two paragraphs (First one highlighted in green, second one in purple): Entries for nomination consideration were open from 1 March 2024 to 14 April. For members of the Recording Industry of South Africa (RiSA), the entry fee for an individual or entity was R862.50 ($58.36), and R4 600.00 ($311.23) for non-members including value-added tax per entry for all categories. Two public voting categories, Music Video of the Year (presented by the RiSA) and Record of the Year (presented by the Motsepe Foundation), were announced via the South African Music Awards' website on 14 August 2024. Celebrating the best music videos, artists and songs released in South Africa during the period 15 April 2023 to 14 April 2024, the remaining nominations were announced on 26 September 2024 at the Gallagher Convention Centre in Midrand, Gauteng, where the ceremony was set to take place. Tyla was the most nominated artist with seven nominations, followed by Kabza de Small with six. YouTube and SABC1 partnered with the RiSA to live stream and broadcast the event on 2 November 2024, at 20:00 p.m South Africa Standard Time. Presented by the RiSA, the ceremony was sponsored by the Motsepe Foundation; Department of Sports, Arts and Culture; SABC1; Santam; SABC; CAPASSO; SAMPRA, Gauteng Department of Sport, Arts, Culture and Recreation; Joburg and YouTube. On 18 October 2024, the organization announced that Tyla would be honoured with the International Achievement Award. Sipho Makhabane and Ringo Madlingozi were the recipients for the Lifetime Achievement Award. Oskido was bestowed the Chairperson's Award presented by the RiSA. On 2 November 2024, Tyla emerged as the most awarded artist with four awards; trailing behind was Kabza de Small and Mthunzi with three.
• What did Ihashi Elimhlophe perform?
• What is exactly the source for the full list of presenters?

The live broadcast, obviously publications would not details every single part of the ceremony. First award show I've watched since 2016, just for this list/article.

I think you might add the source even if it's the live broadcast, just like what you did at the performances section! Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Not problem dxneo (talk) 14:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Ref 12 doesn't state the nominees, only the winners; you might want to add a source for the nominees. I'm also not sure if the "public votes" categories are sourced, the same for the "special awards" section

Good catch, didn't think it mattered since the nominations are scattered across the article, but I'll work on it.

• Be consistent with using the nationalities of the artists within the article, for example Tyla's nationality was never mentioned but it was mentioned for some other artists even if they are also South African

Maybe I should just remove the nationaly since they are all South Africans.

• "On 3 November, South African musician Zakes Bantwini criticized DJ Cleo's performance" - November 3 or November 4?

What do you mean? I think it's 3 November, the day after the awards

The Independent Online source says, "He took to X on Monday, November 4, to write: 'I really enjoyed the 30-year Kwaito tribute by @djcleo1 but I was disappointed ....." Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I noticed that when I was adding the source, please check the date of the embedded tweet, it's on the 3rd. I think it was just a minor error. dxneo (talk) 14:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Medxvo, here's the tweet. dxneo (talk) 14:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I totally get your point, but i don't know what to say except WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE, especially if you're aiming for a FLC. A source reviewer might not pass this because it's more of a WP:OR. Such detail doesn't really matter anyways so you might as well just stick to the source. Medxvo (talk) 15:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem, but there is a guideline about such mistakes, just forgot what it was. Anyway, thank you so much. dxneo (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dxneo: I'm glad I could help! Best of luck with the FLC and feel free to ping me when you nominate the article. I will also be waiting for your comments at the How You Get the Girl peer review whenever you can, I would really appreciate your comments as the GA reviewer! Medxvo (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "should've" - should have
• "many noted that American singer Chris Brown's upcoming South African concert faced boycott and backlash from the Women for Change organization over Brown's controversial past, but they celebrated Mafokate's performance" - "the Women for Change organization called for a boycott for Chris Brown's South African concert in December 2024 due to his controversial past" and remove "celebrated Mafokate's performance" because headlines and subheadlines are not reliable sources. You may also add this source and this source
• There were some issues with the sources (publication formatting; authors missing; etc...) but I have fixed them myself; the only remaining issue is to keep the capitalization style consistent (MOS:CT)

@Dxneo: I'm happy that I was able to provide some comments because I really like your work. If you have time, please consider reviewing my request for an article that you had previously reviewed for GA! I would very much appreciate your thoughts there. Good luck on the future FLC and feel free to ping me whenever you nominate the article :) Medxvo (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Everything has been addressed, unless where stated. Thank you so much, this was helpful. I'll try to review the PR some time soon. dxneo (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dxneo: I didn't receive any notification about your response, I just saw this by chance, so feel free to ping me whenever you respond. I just left some comments above and I'm open for further discussion regarding anything :) Best of luck! Medxvo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I also made an edit here fixing the inconsistent reference formatting; hope it helped. Medxvo (talk) 10:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)