Wikipedia:Lectures/Lecture2-log

*: Now talking on #wikipedia-en-lectures
*: Notify: sanna is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
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SteveCrossin: keya kim
xavexgoem: Hey kim
*: SteveCrossin beat xavexgoem to saying hello to kim :P
kim_: yay (?)
kim_: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/bonobo-conspiracy/
kim_: Oh dear...
SteveCrossin: lol
xavexgoem: kim_, quick question: is the purpose of medcab to foster consensus for the sake of the article or the sake of the editors? What has priority?
xavexgoem: or mediation generally
kim_: heh
kim_: it is assumed that the editors have the quality of the article at heart? ;-)
xavexgoem: 1/2ly
*: kim_ says, tactfully
kim_: if they don't, you ahve 2 problems, not 1 ;-)
xavexgoem: oh, it is, not is it...
xavexgoem: Despite all that good talk on NPOV, V, and NOR . . . hmm
*: xavexgoem thinks UNDUE is a massive beaning. Yes, Steve, I know I already said that :-p
kim_: beaning as in WP:BEANS? ;-)
xavexgoem: yes
kim_: :-P
xavexgoem: But it's a relevant question: what comes first, getting people to write properly, or get people to like each other? Or is the second kind of a crap shoot?
*: xavexgoem doesn't know what he's talking about at all anymore
xavexgoem: (per UNDUE & BEAN: wouldn't the community naturally assume a more global perspective? Doesn't undue interfere with this by making it a prerogative?)
xavexgoem: dammit all if IRC isn't a great forum of rambling.
xavexgoem: *for
xavexgoem: UNDUE places too much weight on V, and V/RS is always iffy, and relies on how information funnels in from the outside. Status quote (due weight) becomes a function of what the media says, and not what people think. I guess is what I'm saying.
xavexgoem: (quo, not quote)
xavexgoem: And now: Queen Quaalude and the Fantastic Five-point-Five!
xavexgoem: *audience cheers*
kim_: heh you're questioning the rules
kim_: that's good :)
xavexgoem: yes. yes, I am.
kim_: why the media?
xavexgoem: not necessarily the media, just sources in general
xavexgoem: Ideally...
xavexgoem: (warning)
kim_: don't for instance scientists on wikipedia generally consider peer reviewed journals to be their basic bread-and-butter?
kim_: peer reviewed journals is sort of an old fashioned way to do wikipedia
kim_: with a massive barrier to entry :-P
xavexgoem: Ideally, wikipedia has enough folks on that consensus should gravitate towards the status quo regardless of media at any rate. I'm wondering if healthy conflict is in some ways good.
xavexgoem: Peer reviewed is fine
xavexgoem: But that's scientific before anything
kim_: is that wrong?
kim_: SPOV ~= NPOV
kim_: it's close enough... most of the time
kim_: I figure one day in future, some people will rail against NPOV
xavexgoem: scientific peer-reviewed sources?
kim_: in the same way some rail against SPOV
xavexgoem: No.
xavexgoem: NPOV is fine. UNDUE, I think, is a problem.
kim_: at some point people will take NPOV to be authoritative... and then go like "but my <crank theory> is actuaklly right... NPOV is just a point of view"
kim_: "evolution is just a theory' ... we're sorta already there :-P{
*: kim_ snickers
xavexgoem: Right.
kim_: UNDUE is growing in prominence?
xavexgoem: Hold on, distilling thoughts.
xavexgoem: (yes)
xavexgoem: Q1. Does consensus take priority over NPOV?
xavexgoem: particularly if the pool is saturated
xavexgoem: (which I suppose is part of the problem)
xavexgoem: (i.e., fringe areas don't receive as much attention)
kim_: A1: ideally consensus == NPOV
kim_: A2: the idea is to get consensus on what IS NPOV... everyone is assumed to be aiming to make the encyclopedia NPOV :-)
xavexgoem: Hmm... I don't understand my question, I think :-p
kim_: A3: people should be "writing for the enemy" ... so consensus should fall in between the crossed-over positions ...
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xavexgoem: that much makes sense
kim_: A4: when people "write for themselves" , NPOV should still be in the middle-ish.. which is also where consensus lives
kim_: but noe of these answers are perfect
xavexgoem: meh, I'll try to expand on what I'm going for over time (I understood it exactly for 1 second yesterday :-p)
kim_: if I say 1+1=3
kim_: and you say 1+1=4
*: xavexgoem listens
kim_: then the middle is 1+1=3.5
kim_: while the real answer is 2
kim_: ;-)
kim_: though this could be take as sample bias ;-)
kim_: taken as
kim_: perhaps if you ask enough people...
*: SteveCrossin is now known as SteveCrossin3
xavexgoem: Ok, what I mean is: consensus is ideally NPOV, because NPOV is an ideal consensus
kim_: yes
kim_: that sounds right
kim_: :-)
kim_: of course... now we enter the Real World (tm) ;-)
xavexgoem: So why the instruction on undue weight?
kim_: to compensate for sample bias?
kim_: interested people tend to gravitate towards a subject area
kim_: but I haven't studied UNDUE extensively
xavexgoem: (wracks head)
xavexgoem: Yes, but both sides of a given argument for a subject area are going to gravitate anyway
xavexgoem: I'm seeing an inherent problem in my argument, now, but it's limitation is how we structure ourselves here
xavexgoem: So: nevermind :-p
xavexgoem: So I can see why it's in NPOV
kim_: well
kim_: it'd be nice if you told the rest of us ;-)
xavexgoem: I /might/ bring it up on WT:NPOV
xavexgoem: It's hard to argue with the idea that there will be 20 people editing homeopathy for their point of view and 3 expert-withdrawalers against them will get anything done)
*: xavexgoem shrinks noticably
xavexgoem: 14:30! Yay!
*: xavexgoem has quit ("Leaving.")
kim_: eek
kim_: I still need to work on the exercises
*: kim_ has changed the topic to: test
kim_: I can change topic... that much is good
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kim_: looks like mostly medcab in here
kim_: would someone start inviting people?
Xavexgoem: sure
kim_: coolness
kim_: it's time
kim_: like last time, no-one is here yet ;-)
kim_: seems par for the course
kim_: Xavexgoem, ahve you been doing the invitation thing already?
kim_: ^^;;
*: kim_ is typing some text on-wiki
Xavexgoem: kim_: yes
Xavexgoem: but I didn't specify freenode. I hope they figure that bit out
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Xavexgoem: well, it worked once :-D
Sardanaphalus: hi!
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Sardanaphalus: thanks for reminder
Xavexgoem: np
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Bob222: I am Filll
Sardanaphalus: hi Bob
kim_: Hye bob, you're filll? ;-)
kim_: Heya ;-)
Bob222: Yes I am Filll
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kim_: Ok, nearly done typing ...
Bob222: I barely know how to use IRC
Bob222: can I change my name?
Xavexgoem: type /nick [name]
kim_: Filll: last time we noticed it took up to 30 minutes before everyone finally showed up
*: Bob222 is now known as Filll
kim_: Bob222: type /nick Filll
kim_: right :-)
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Xavexgoem: halfway done through "I think I already"'s
kim_: Xavexgoem, technically isn't it /nick <name>  ? ;-)
Sardanaphalus: oops sorry i hit close
*: kim_ is a BNF-nazi
Xavexgoem: meh :-p
Sardanaphalus: backus-naur (sp?)
Sardanaphalus: back us nao!
kim_: ayup
Sardanaphalus: okay what's the topic
Xavexgoem: uhh, 256 megs sucks atm
Sardanaphalus: or is it free q&a?
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Sardanaphalus: is it my end or are things slow?
Xavexgoem: ?
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Sardanaphalus: nothing seems to be happening...?
Filll2: nope all quiet
Filll2: except i keep getting booted
*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: Ok
kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: everyone here?
kim_: I guess so
Xavexgoem: got 'em all
Sardanaphalus: okay i've opened the link
kim_: hey everyone, welcome to lecture 2, starting 15 minutes late ;-)
Sardanaphalus: :-)
kim_: please read the link, and read through Filll's questions a bit
*: kim_ bows to Filll
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kim_: thank you very much for making those questions, they're useful for all kinds of things!
kim_: :-)
kim_: hello AGK!
[AGK]: Hello Kim ;) Sorry I'm late.
[AGK]: Have we finished?
kim_: AGK : we were just looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: we've just started
[AGK]: I'll take a look now, thanks.
kim_: it seems to be a law of physics that everyone shows up 30 minutes late
kim_: so we go slow for the first 30 ;-)
[AGK]: Sensible =)
kim_: maybe something to do with the basic psyche of the typical wikipedian ;-)
kim_: we'll end at 17:00 UTC
Sardanaphalus: okay, so are we meant to take Filll's challenge now, or just discuss it?
kim_: (2 hours from start time)
[AGK]: Ah yes, Fill's challenge.
[AGK]: I was just going to discuss that =)
[AGK]: Well, advertise it :p
kim_: I was thinking of walking through a couple of questions of Fillls challenge
[AGK]: Oh, Filll's here.
[AGK]: Yeah, great idea, kim.
kim_: and I've also posted a method as to how I think we should do each question
Sardanaphalus: okay kim, i like
kim_: well, more than "I think" :-P
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kim_: I've got some basic steps you can take to systematically be sure that what you're going to do will actually work ;-)
Sniperz11: aha...
kim_: of course, you can take the steps wrong
Sniperz11: I'm i too late??
kim_: but if you do it RIGHT ....
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kim_: Sniperz11, yes and no, we count on folks being half an hour late
kim_: start out by reading through ...
kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: Sniperz11, so we take it easy the first half hour ;-)
Sniperz11: hehe... thx
kim_: Don't count on us counting on the half hour though :-P
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Sniperz11: I jus saw the message on my talk. Rushed here as fast as i could. :-)
kim_: so there be Filll's challenge
kim_: Cool
[AGK]: I'm just getting folks to join.
kim_: Hello Qst
[AGK]: Hello Qst!
kim_: AGK: heh!
Qst: Hello :)
[AGK]: kim_: Qst's wondering what the lecture's on.
kim_: QST: same to you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions (it's in the channel topic) ... we start really talking in 10 more minutes or so
[AGK]: Care to explain?
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kim_: AGK: lecture is about how to deal with complex wikipedia situations, while maintaining consensus
[AGK]: kim_: skype would make this so much easier =)
kim_: Welcome again Filll3 :-)
Filll3: yes i am having trouble
Filll3: haha
kim_: AGK: but not everyone here has skype... do they?
Sniperz11: who here has skype??
Qst: I wasn't planning on getting involved with the AGF challenge
kim_: show of hands?
Sniperz11: show of hands
Sardanaphalus: i got a comment about one thing on the lecture2-questions page that could kick things off
Qst: But I might, I'll see
Sardanaphalus: skype? nope, sorry
kim_: Qst, that's ok... we're going to answer the questions together
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kim_: \The other problem with skype, AGK, is that we won't nescesarily have a log :-)
Sniperz11: record it...
[AGK]: kim_: we can record, however.
Sniperz11: Wikipedia Weekly does that
kim_: Filll3, if you keep getting disconnected, that's ok... we'll keep a log
kim_: OH, that ROCKS!
kim_: we'd also need transcript ;-)
Xavexgoem: I'm an excellent transcriptionist
Xavexgoem: as in: I type fast :-p
kim_: AGK: ok, so one of the next lectures will be recorded... it's a deal!
[AGK]: kim_: there you go ;)
kim_: :-)
Sardanaphalus: also NotTheWikipediaWeekly
[AGK]: the wikipedia weekly do transcripts =)
*: Xavexgoem is an over-eager nit :-p
[AGK]: kim_: great stuff ;)
[AGK]: I'll chat with you on skype about the specifics afterwards.
kim_: Wicked!
kim_: alright
kim_: Sardanaphalus, well, go ahead and comment ...
Sardanaphalus: well, i think it might be inviting trouble if you suggest already how you might compromise on something
kim_: and I might do some intro, then we'll attack a couple of the questions together (that's 10 minutes from now) .. and we end at 17:00 UTC ... I think that's a plan for today :-)
Sardanaphalus: okay, hold on that comment then
kim_: Sardanaphalus, Sometimes yes, sometimes no, that's a judgement call/ variation you'll need to think about yourself
Xavexgoem: Hey, if there are any folks who joined w/o going through WP:Lectures, can you add yourself to that?
[AGK]: kim_: I need to pop off for a bit, I may miss some of the lecture.
[AGK]: I'll keep idling, and read up afterwards.
kim_: but you do need to KNOW where you're going to compromise upfront
Xavexgoem: (later, probably)
kim_: AGK: that's fine!
[AGK]: kk ;)
Sardanaphalus: yes i agree
*: [AGK] is now known as [AGK|away]
kim_: so for each of Fillls questions... try to answer the lecture-2 page questions, so that you systematically get all sides covered :-)
*: [AGK|away] just invited more people here.
kim_: yet more?
kim_: wow!
Xavexgoem: kim_: on talk? or here?
kim_: Xavexgoem, what do you mean?
kim_: Xavexgoem, Oh no... I see
kim_: Xavexgoem, No I mean, we're going to do that together :-)
Xavexgoem: kk
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Phoenix-wiki: lecture on what?
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Filll4: wow I am getting a big list
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kim_: I suggest we discuss the arrow of time one, that sounds like my favorite kind of situation ;-)
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Filll4: haha
Filll4: that is a good one
kim_: Hello Phoenix-wiki : we're doing lectures on how to be a member of the wikipedia cabal ;-) How to make friends and influence wikis :-)
Filll4: and based on a real situation of course
Phoenix-wiki: ah, lol
Phoenix-wiki: well that's easily done
Phoenix-wiki: WP:COUNCIL
Phoenix-wiki: join it
[AGK|away]: :p
Phoenix-wiki: it actually exists lol
Phoenix-wiki: I'm a member
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, today we're going to do some exercises based on Filll's AGF challenge
kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Sardanaphalus: i'm up for the arrow-of-time, i just read it
kim_: we'll be walking through some of them systematically
Qst: I've said about this channel in ##Majorly, so hopefully we'll get more people
kim_: to see how we'd solve such cases on the wiki if they occur in real time ;-)
kim_: gee whiz!
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
Phoenix-wiki: I have it ope
Phoenix-wiki: HEAD INTO #wikipedia-en-lectures
Phoenix-wiki: ALL IN
Phoenix-wiki: oops
Phoenix-wiki: wrong channel
Phoenix-wiki: :-p
[AGK|away]: :D
Sardanaphalus: we have self-referential overload
kim_: ROTFL
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[AGK|away]: lulz
[AGK|away]: Hey Not the NSA
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe some folks might join your council idea :-)
Phoenix-wiki: anyway, are we gonna start these question things?
kim_: Hello Not_the_NSA , this channel is logged, so even if you WERE the NSA, we wouldn't mind ;-)
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Filll4: Nothing wrong with the NSA
Filll4: haha
kim_: Not_the_NSA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions ... we'll be looking at the Arrow of Time problem first
kim_: Ok, stop inviting
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Not_the_NSA: kim_: :D
*: Not_the_NSA isn't interested
Not_the_NSA: bye
kim_: Not_the_NSA, bye!
kim_: :-)
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Filll4: see you NSA
Sniperz11: whats the count to start of lecture??
kim_: we're starting now
Sniperz11: do i have enough time to reboot my comp??
kim_: and if more people get invited... It'll get too hard for me :-)
Sardanaphalus: they'll know they're late, it's okay
kim_: well that, and too many people makes it hard to interact on irc :-)
kim_: I'd need +o and so
Phoenix-wiki: start
kim_: ok, so let's look at the arrow of time question
kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
kim_: has everyone read that through?
kim_: So first up, what's your gut feeling about that?
kim_: (todays lecture is going to be interactive)
kim_: ;-)
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Xavexgoem: Is that a legal threat? Or just a trolling?
Phoenix-wiki: I'll read through
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Sardanaphalus: the 47-edit guy isn't being reasonable
Xavexgoem: I mean, it's not saying "I'm gonna sue you"
Texas_Patriot: Read it.
Sardanaphalus: Ps guy includes gals, sorry
Phoenix-wiki: okay
Sardanaphalus: the threat to sue is without foundation, surely
kim_: Xavexgoem, Right, legal threats are easy, just block 'em and point 'em to OTRS
Phoenix-wiki: I'd have him blocked per WP:LEGAL
kim_: Sardanaphalus, is he saying he's suing though? read carefully
Sardanaphalus: ah okay
Texas_Patriot: He's making a statement threat of suing other editors & WP.
Texas_Patriot: Block.
Sardanaphalus: hold on, OTRS...?
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Phoenix-wiki: and most of all, he's being the biggest m:DICK I've ever seen
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kim_: so you'd just block him point-blank?
Phoenix-wiki: blcok him per WP:LEGAL
Phoenix-wiki: yeah
kim_: that would be pretty darn short
Phoenix-wiki: well I can't
NotASpy: lo kim_ and all
Phoenix-wiki: but I'd post to ANI
kim_: Right
Xavexgoem: How do you warn against semi-borderline-adjective-legal threats?
Phoenix-wiki: and if I was an admin I'd ban him right off
*: Xavexgoem wouldn't outright block
Sardanaphalus: even if you're an admin, not incident-board post first?
Texas_Patriot: If it wasn't for the legal threat, I'd open a mediation.
NotASpy: who needs beaten with a stick now ?
SteveCrossin3: block block block block block block block block block block block block block v
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Phoenix-wiki: yeah I probably would go to ANI
kim_: I think Xavexgoem has the first clue ;-)
Sardanaphalus: go on, please
SteveCrossin3: per WP:LEGAL = block
kim_: Xavexgoem is saying that he's not actually threatening to sue :-)
Xavexgoem: 43 edits doesn't quite qualify as SPA yet, either
SteveCrossin3: and
kim_: NotASpy, see topic ;-)
Xavexgoem: in my mind
SteveCrossin3: cos i say so :P
Sardanaphalus: no threat: this is true
Phoenix-wiki: "But, you are going to get WP and yourself sued if you continue to believe WP..."
Phoenix-wiki: people have been blocked for less than that
Xavexgoem: The first thing to do is to ignore that entirely
Sardanaphalus: well, okay, veiled threat
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, they have?
Xavexgoem: legal threats
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I'd note a question there...
Phoenix-wiki: yes
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, "are you actually threatening to sue? or do you mean that others MIGHT sue, when they learn of this?"
kim_: it might be WP:PANIC instead :-P
Texas_Patriot: I've seen people blocked for it before.
Sardanaphalus: the real problem tho is his/her apparent inability to communicate/collaborate earlier in the sotry
kim_: right
Phoenix-wiki: he's technically saying others might sue, but it's a veiled threat
Sardanaphalus: story
Texas_Patriot: not sure if for less than that however. It does seem borderline.
kim_: okay
kim_: but we'd like to resolve the situation , if possible
NotASpy: what's wrong with blocking the user, protecting their talk page, preventing them from sending e-mail and blacklisting from the unblock mailing list ?
Xavexgoem: I'd drop him off at wikiquette
kim_: just block and run seems rather crude :-)
Sardanaphalus: yes, i agree
Phoenix-wiki: and he should have been blcoked for edit warring anyway
kim_: heh
kim_: GOOD LORD
kim_: you guys are all so darn violent!
kim_: ;-)
Sardanaphalus: as non-admin, i feel the jump to block too quick
Phoenix-wiki: NotASpy, that'd be a bit far
NotASpy: surely not.
Phoenix-wiki: well he is a pov pusher
Xavexgoem: Maybe he has a place to contribute elsewhere?
kim_: NotASpy, posting a watch on their house, installing snipers, hacking the pentagon, and firing a nuclear strike? ;-)
kim_: Ok...
NotASpy: kim_: yeah, you're getting the idea now. Jolly good.
Sardanaphalus: i've had a less heavy-duty version of this not too long
Sardanaphalus: ago
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kim_: well, that's the shortest question ever then
Filll: back
kim_: now here's the thing
Filll: haha
Phoenix-wiki: if he'd been doign that for 2 weeks he would have been brought to ANI
kim_: say I sign you on to EA
Filll: short is good
Phoenix-wiki: and made to stop
kim_: and this guy comes to you and asks you to get him off... ;-)
kim_: or say you're a mediator
Filll: I have some longer ones in the 2nd batch of exercises
Sardanaphalus: wait, sorry, what is EA
kim_: Editor Assistence
Sardanaphalus: not Electronic Arts i'm guessing
Sardanaphalus: ah okay
Sardanaphalus: thanks
kim_: you're supposed to help the editor write the wiki
Sardanaphalus: ya
Phoenix-wiki: yeah?
kim_: so this guy has been doing some stupid things
Sardanaphalus: yup
Phoenix-wiki: yeah?
Xavexgoem: otoh, everyone is tolerating him.
kim_: but as their editor assistent, we now need to advise them how to get out of the sticky situation ;-)
Sardanaphalus: but not tolerating him in an EFFECTIVe way
Xavexgoem: Sard, yeah
Phoenix-wiki: kim_, depends on the situation in question
kim_: Can we still prevent others from blocking him?
Sardanaphalus: offer to help him/her get one of the refs needed
*: kim_ says, making this challenge question a lot more challenging, suddenly :-)
Phoenix-wiki: if I thought that he was a genuine editor who'd been a bit stupid, I'd probably get them out of trouble somehow
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NotASpy: kim_: no, you're not supposed to help *the* editor help write the wiki, you're supposed to help *all* editors write the wiki, and if one or two people are getting in the way, they need to be sacrificed for the greater good.
Sardanaphalus: yes, phoenix, that's where i am
Phoenix-wiki: NotASpy, that's exactly my philosophy
Xavexgoem: Huh? You can't help all editors. Unless you have a REALLY big room :-p
Sardanaphalus: man that's raw, NotASpy!!
kim_: NotASpy, well, if you're EA, you're sort of supposed to try and help this one guy :-)
Phoenix-wiki: Igorberger should be indef banned
Texas_Patriot: According to WP:EA, its to help editors with understanding the wiki policy and editing.
kim_: NotASpy, you're an old-style wikipedian, I can tell ;-)
NotASpy: being too heavy handed is bad, but being overly generous is equally as bad.
kim_: NotASpy, I agree... but can we try to help this guy?
Phoenix-wiki: no
kim_: NotASpy, and see if they are truely a lost cause? :-)
Sardanaphalus: the editor may have good stuff contribute if they can just get past being asked for sources
NotASpy: who are we trying to help ?
Xavexgoem: No?
Xavexgoem: It's called the AGF challenge :-p
kim_: NotASpy, the 47-edits guy :-)
kim_: if everyone just assumes bad faith upfront
kim_: it's gonna be a very short session ;-)
*: kim_ snickers
Phoenix-wiki: email him to say that he should create a sock in a month and not get into trouble next time if he really watns to help, and not to tell anyone, including me who the sock is
Sardanaphalus: assuming it's a topic i was into, i'd try to do one (just one) ref for them and seewhat they make of it
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, wow
Phoenix-wiki: that's what they do anyway
kim_: alright
Xavexgoem: ...
kim_: so that's your initial position
kim_: ;-)
kim_: that;s your gut feeling anyway ;-)
Sardanaphalus: in other words, encourage them to do what people were asking for and what the encyclopedia needs
kim_: I think Sardanaphalus probably has the best approach
Phoenix-wiki: socks get you out of trouble easily
Texas_Patriot: Wikipedia:Assume stupidity
kim_: Alright
Phoenix-wiki: you're even allowed to by policy
Texas_Patriot: or WP:ASS
Texas_Patriot: ;)
kim_: so we go with Sardanaphalus approach... that's just question 1 on the list though ;-)
kim_: the next question ...
Phoenix-wiki: create a sock to "start again"
kim_: who is involved in this position
NotASpy: no, you need to WP:Assume Good Faith but Expect Stupidity
Sardanaphalus: but if they continue being obstructive, i guess the situation goes up a defcon
kim_: who is involved in this situation?
Texas_Patriot: Good version NotASpy
kim_: Sardanaphalus, exactly
Sardanaphalus: the arrow-of-time situation?
*: kim_ pokes White_Cat -> can you give me a +O?
kim_: Sardanaphalus, yes :-)
kim_: Order Order!
Sardanaphalus: theoretically the whole community, but i'm guessing you mean more directly
kim_: We're on "* who is involved" for the arrow of time situation (see topic for material for today)
Phoenix-wiki: I think Guy agrees with NotASpy, btw
kim_: Sardanaphalus, yes
a: which case are we talking about here?
Sardanaphalus: okay, the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, the sock plan might be a good backup plan, if Sardanaphalus plan doesn't quite work
Sardanaphalus: the arrow-of-time
Xavexgoem: "Arrow of Time"
kim_: Sardanaphalus, Ayup
Phoenix-wiki: kim_, I've done it
kim_: Ok, so now "what needs to be attained" ?
Phoenix-wiki: he wasn't in trouble
Phoenix-wiki: wel he was
Xavexgoem: Has he figured out refs yet?
Texas_Patriot: I don't see an editor on editor conflict, it's a general community involvement. Since the quality of the article is in question from the statement being argued.
Phoenix-wiki: everyone thought he was a stupid asshole
kim_: what needs to happen at Young Earth Creationism?
Phoenix-wiki: so I told him to just create a new account and putthe stuff behind him
Phoenix-wiki: the YEC needs banning
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, *nod*
Sardanaphalus: a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation
kim_: does everyone agree with Sardanaphalus here? :-)
Sardanaphalus: i do ;)
Phoenix-wiki: the guy about the arrow of time needs blocking
Xavexgoem: sure
Xavexgoem: (Sure, Sard)
Sardanaphalus: hey phoenix, maybe they haven't sussed wikiing yet
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, this is the young earth creationism article, I don't think we can ban the YEC's ... maybe the arrow guy, but we were AGF-ing ? :-P
Texas_Patriot: Phoenix - Indef?
Phoenix-wiki: no I mean just that guy
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe
Phoenix-wiki: yeah indef
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, can we solve the situation WITHOUT blocking that guy?
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Phoenix-wiki: not really
Sardanaphalus: i think it's possible
kim_: try to figure the LEAST invasive solution
Phoenix-wiki: it would take time
Xavexgoem: Can we operate under the assumption that this guy isn't totally unwhateverable?
Texas_Patriot: The possibility is there, but most things are possible Kim.
Sardanaphalus: it should at least be TRIED dammit
bob222: ok sorta back
Phoenix-wiki: and effort
*: bob222 is now known as Filll2
kim_: this is kinda important if you don't have admin tools in the first place ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: which no one wants to waste
Filll2: oops
Texas_Patriot: Depends on effort needed on one editor due to one small statement being the issue.
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, that's harsh
Phoenix-wiki: that particul guy needs a block, though I'd bring it to ANI first
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and that attitude causes all kinds of trouble down the line
Xavexgoem: I wouldn't be wasting my time were I there...
kim_: So I see we ahve a problem
Sardanaphalus: i'm finding people often come over far worse in typeface than they really are
Filll2: interesting how harsh people are
kim_: some people here do not WANT to Assume Good Faith upfront
Phoenix-wiki: where has it caused trouble?
kim_: Phoenix wants to block
kim_: who else?
Sardanaphalus: no, not yet
Filll2: i think
Phoenix-wiki: no he has clearly demonstrated he is not acting in good faith
kim_: Filll, yes, they just stop at step 1, and aren't going to look further!
Sardanaphalus: some people need more than 47 edits to get it
Phoenix-wiki: if he says that WP could be sued
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Sardanaphalus: melodrama?
Texas_Patriot: Editors as well.
Xavexgoem: Sard is right: 47 ain't much
Phoenix-wiki: and he added that in 34 times in 2 weeks
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, come on, he's only made 47 edits!
a: indef might be too harsh
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe hes' just clueless! :-)
Phoenix-wiki: yes but he's not acting in good faith
a: a temp block is better IMO
kim_: a: and we're trying to be systematic
Sardanaphalus: i agree 47-edits doesn't sound promising but more chance needed
kim_: but we're stuck at step 1 of the system
Xavexgoem: lotsa people don't, Phoenix :-p
Texas_Patriot: A: Why? We dont want to use cooldown blocks.
Phoenix-wiki: no he'd have been warned millions of times in 2 weeks
Texas_Patriot: 'cooldown'*
kim_: hehehe
kim_: OK!
kim_: ORDER!
Filll2: and what is interesting to me is that the people who complain that Wikipedia is too harsh....have little experience in controversial areas...and when they give their opinion on these AGF Challenge exercises...they are far more harsh than many experienced people
Filll2: The biggest complainers are often the least experienced and the most harsh
kim_: I'm going to try to use just my voice
kim_: rather than the chanop tools to keep the channel at order here ;-)
kim_: Filll2, extremely more harsh in fact
Phoenix-wiki: Guy once said that I had "a bulletproof assumption of good faith"
kim_: I think "block him" is way too premature here
Filll2: yes it is interesting isnt it?
Phoenix-wiki: no
Phoenix-wiki: 2 weeks is a long time
Xavexgoem: Also, assume stupidity not malice
Xavexgoem: which is kind of a corollary, I guess
Filll2: I will not reveal what we did in practice yet
Filll2: haha
Filll2: all of these are based on real situations
Phoenix-wiki: and he would have been brought to ANI already anyway
Sardanaphalus: but 47-edits might not be a consistent regualr editor
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, well, the objective here... is not only to AGF on this dude's part
a: the problem is that most newbies consider WP to be a graffiti wall rather than an encyclopedia
Filll2: I will wait until more have answered...then in a few weeks I will tell what we really did
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, but now that we all became EA members... we have to help him
*: a is now known as Sniperz11
Sniperz11: and I suspect that this guy is the same...
Phoenix-wiki: yes but it says he put in in 34 times in 2 weeks, he had to make 2 edits a day or he would have been blocked per 3 rr already
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if it's any help, say you get to talk to the 47-edit dude on the phone, and he genuinely sounds like he wants to help out wikipedia, and is asking you what he's doing wrong? :-)
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Sardanaphalus: hmm okay
Phoenix-wiki: in that case
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, 99% of the time when I've called someone, they turn out to be that way
Filll2: Many of these cases violate 3RR for days on end with no consequences
Filll2: because we try not to BITE
Phoenix-wiki: tell him it's not sensible to mention sueing of the 'pedia
Phoenix-wiki: and that things need references
Xavexgoem: Do NOT tell him about sueing
kim_: Ok
kim_: alright
Phoenix-wiki: Qst, I'd like to hear your opninion
kim_: right
kim_: just to be sure
Sardanaphalus: the sueing stuff sounds so melodramatic (sp?) i'd just ignore (but not forget) it
Xavexgoem: yeah
Phoenix-wiki: do you guys read ANI much?
kim_: we're on step 1 "The action you would like to take , and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.", subquestion "what's your gut feeling"
kim_: :-P
Sardanaphalus: must admit no
Phoenix-wiki: have a look now
Qst: Phoenix-wiki: On what, exactly?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, not today thank you
Phoenix-wiki: moso much fighting
kim_: we'd like to move along
Phoenix-wiki: kk next question
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Sardanaphalus: okay, more Qst?
Qst: More what?
kim_: ok # who is involved
Qst: Sorry, I've been AFK and missed this
kim_: Sardanaphalus, already answered... some others need to catch up :-)
Sardanaphalus: okay no prob
Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
Sniperz11: this is too chaotic
kim_: RIGHT
Phoenix-wiki: Qst, your opnion on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#Arrow_of_Time
kim_: OK
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, quiet please
kim_: QUIET! :-)
Sniperz11: everyones talking together.. one at a time plz. Kim moderate plz.
kim_: Thank you :-)
kim_: Moderating now!
Sniperz11: thanks
kim_: Sniperz11, hush :-P
kim_: alright
kim_: so ... 1 answer per person ... who is involved in the Arrow of time case?
kim_: Sardanaphalus, you can just copy-paste your earlier answer ;-)
Filll2: Wow Qst is here
Xavexgoem: A presumably salvagable character and a bunch of other tolerating folks
Phoenix-wiki: can we do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules next?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, yes... good plan, but first this step :-)
Phoenix-wiki: kk
Qst: Well, its probably best to explain to hi (again) that Wikipedia needs reliable references to back such claims up (more than one, if available) and that he cannot enter such theories which may be only his personal beliefs in to a fact-based encyclopedia
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kim_: Ok, I think we got the answer from Xavexgoem ... anyone else have additions?
Sardanaphalus: good idea, "the 47-edit guy and the other editors on the talk page"
Qst: to him, sorry **
Texas_Patriot: 47 Edit Editor, and the general community of people on the talk page who are active.
Phoenix-wiki: yeah that cleared up, next part
kim_: Ok... I think that that's all we can surmise here
kim_: :-)
Sardanaphalus: they are the active people involved anyway
Sardanaphalus: okay
Qst: What is the next part?
*: Xavexgoem is now known as Xav
Phoenix-wiki: Qst, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: so the next question : "# what needs to be attained"
kim_: what are we trying to have happen on the Young Earth Creationism page?
Sardanaphalus: copypasting...
Phoenix-wiki: we need it to become stable
Qst: Do I tell the answers here?
kim_: one answer per person again... else it gets too crowded :-)
Xav: Consensus is against his addition, even ref'd, so... That has to go
Phoenix-wiki: nobody editing
Phoenix-wiki: Qst, yes
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kim_: Qst, we're doing answers here :-)
Sardanaphalus: "a stable situation where 47-edit doesn't keep readding their stuff without foundation"
kim_: Ok
Phoenix-wiki: everyon involved needs to stop editing the main page, and be ready to discuss things on the talk
kim_: Continuing on Xav: perhaps the 47 edit guy can add elsewhere (like at time cube? )
[AGK|away]: Back, folks.
*: [AGK|away] is now known as [AGK]
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's actually broken ...
Xav: That'd be my suggestion
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's just procedure... what needs to HAPEN :-)
Xav: But not Time Cube, per se
Phoenix-wiki: that needs to happen
kim_: Xav, just someplace... to be determined?
Xav: Ask what his interests are
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, no, then the page will be protected on the wrong version ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: he neds to stop editing that page
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's all?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and what can he do instead?
Phoenix-wiki: talk on talk page
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so not everyone, just him?
Phoenix-wiki: discuss
Phoenix-wiki: everyone involved
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, maybe...
Sardanaphalus: it might just be redirecting 47-edit's hevay-handed editing to another article, but try to interest him/her in a more time-related topic might work?
Xav: that's prejudicial, imo
Phoenix-wiki: some ip who wants to do a typo can still edit
Xav: wouldn't make him happy at all
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's all very nice... but what must he ACHIEVE with discussion. discussion is not an objective, it's merely a means
Phoenix-wiki: oh
Phoenix-wiki: he needs to find reliable references for his info, or leave it out
kim_: Sardanaphalus, Possibly... maybe we need to teach him better editing? :-) Suggest 1 page? :-)
Phoenix-wiki: and not mention sueing WP
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that sounds like a plan
kim_: ok, so we now all have a bit of an idea what we'd like to achieve
Phoenix-wiki: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
kim_: Next question: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
kim_: :-)
kim_: :-)
kim_: Exactly
Xav: how important is it to get his edits out NOW? There's a chance he'll go at it, but edit warring over a single guy sounds bad. Maybe
Phoenix-wiki: lol
kim_: one answer per person first :-)
Xav: nvm
Xav: heh
Phoenix-wiki: what's the best outcome for the encyclopedia?
Sardanaphalus: peace, tranquility and accuracy
Xav: ^^ him
kim_: Sardanaphalus, Right... now applied to this situation? :-)
Phoenix-wiki: the best outcome is that his thing is left out if can;t find refs
Phoenix-wiki: or
Phoenix-wiki: if he can
Sardanaphalus: 47-edit's stuff is either there with refs or left out, yes
Xav: there are many best outcomes, too
Sniperz11: if we get him actively talking to the other editors, that will be a start
Phoenix-wiki: then include it
Xav: (well, good ones)
Sardanaphalus: yes, decent refs
Sniperz11: the end result would be his understanding and agreement with WP:RS policy
Phoenix-wiki: yes
Phoenix-wiki: agreed
Phoenix-wiki: next question
Sniperz11: once he agrees that RS is impt, problem solved
Xav: applied: ask him what his interests are; ignore the edit war and uncited stuff atm
Sardanaphalus: (another opportunity for trouble tho i guess
Xav: append :-) Kim Bruning (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC) at the end
Phoenix-wiki: how can that outcome be attained?
kim_: Xav, :-P
Phoenix-wiki: well
kim_: Xav, have you been stalking me? ;-)
Xav: sorta
Xav: but not really
Phoenix-wiki: how can that outcome be attained?
*: Texas_Patriot goes afk
kim_: Xav, :-P
Sardanaphalus: even if the first step moves the problem from the stuff to how decent the refs might be, that's progress, no?
Xav: just the :-) thing (all I learned was the hyphen is important)
Phoenix-wiki: keep reverting him untill he confirms he's read RS and actually found refs
Phoenix-wiki: agree?
Xav: No.
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, Oh, you're totally mean... How about contacting him? ;-)
Sniperz11: it hasn't worked till now
Xav: Reverting escalates the problem
Sardanaphalus: agreed
Phoenix-wiki: yes this would be while talking on the talk page
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if you do that, I will report you for 3RR ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: but he can't keep adding in
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, someone else breaking the rules doesn't excuse you doing the same :)
Phoenix-wiki: he would reach 3 rr b4 me
Sardanaphalus: hmm sounds like gaming the system thing
Phoenix-wiki: and I would just get someoen from irc to revert for me when I reached 2
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, now you're gaming the system... which is covered somewhere, but probably will get you a site-ban in the end ;-)
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, and THAT would re-open the IRC RFAr if anyone ever found you out ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: no stuff with no ref in contraversial topics can be removed
Phoenix-wiki: with no fear of 3 rr
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, is that so?
Sardanaphalus: phoenix, the dodgy text might need to stay there for a day or three while people try to communicate with 47-edit
Phoenix-wiki: it happens routinely on Evolution
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I thought that was only for BLP, and controversial at that :-P
Xav: 3RR is a stop-gap against being being a dick, not against reverting dicks
Phoenix-wiki: yeah it is
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I see... that's not quite policy-compliant
Xav: an m:Dick, sorry
Phoenix-wiki: according to policy
Phoenix-wiki: but noone blocks you for it
Phoenix-wiki: even if it is against policy
Xav: (I mean it works for all parties, regardless, no?)
Phoenix-wiki: IAR
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, interesting... ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: you're helping the encyclopedia
Sardanaphalus: cmon all this is beside the point if 47-edit doesn't get a breaktrhough
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, still, that's very dirty... ;-)
Xav: we haven't even gotten to the point where we discuss how he gets a breakthrough (or have we?)
Phoenix-wiki: Xav, am a dick
Phoenix-wiki: I am a dick*
Phoenix-wiki: according to that essay
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, being a dick is against policy ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: then most of us would be indef banned
*: kim_ pokes out tongue ;-)
Xav: I wasn't implying anything personal :-)
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, possibly true!
Phoenix-wiki: no
Sardanaphalus: 47-edit might not genuinely think they're being a dick
Phoenix-wiki: Xav I'm just saying, soz
kim_: Right
Xav: right
kim_: Ok, carrying on ...
Phoenix-wiki: yes but you'd be talking to them on the talk page
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, I'd e-mail them, actually, :-)
Sniperz11: most newbies just think that WP is a nice wall to put graffiti on, and 47E seems like that....
Sardanaphalus: the point is, we need 47-edit to sign up to the wiki way of thinking
*: Texas_Patriot is back
Phoenix-wiki: and the best thing to do would to get them to stop untill they find refs
kim_: Sniperz11, so we need to explain :-)
Xav: Sniperz11: and that's a bad culture, and we can fix that!
kim_: Sardanaphalus, sounds like you've had some experience mediating eh?
Sardanaphalus: it's no good if we go to 47-edit ASSUMING they're okay with it
Sardanaphalus: kim> in real world, sometimes
Phoenix-wiki: I've done loads of medcab
kim_: Sardanaphalus, that's much harder than on-wiki. cool :-)
Sardanaphalus: heh i didn't say how successful
Phoenix-wiki: only 1 went past me
Phoenix-wiki: like, to medcom
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, wow, so I'll ask vassayana to watch you some more :-)
Phoenix-wiki: lol
Phoenix-wiki: but that case is absurd
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, Possibly you're doing ok, but you're way harsh man. ;-)
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, it really happened, apparently (with names and details altered to protect the guilty innocent )
Phoenix-wiki: listen, if he re-added 34 times, despite everyone explaining to him on the talk page he isn't acting in good fait
kim_: alright, we're coming up on halt-time, so let's move along ;-)
Xav: He might not have even SEEN WP:AGF
Xav: 47 is nuthin'
Sardanaphalus: i guess it depends how exactly the message didnt get through 34 times
Phoenix-wiki: yes but people would no doubt have linked him to it
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, need to contact him directly then ;-)
Phoenix-wiki: I was discussing stuff on the VP as my first edit
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you're superman then ;-)
kim_: :-)
Phoenix-wiki: no pleanty of people have
kim_: True...
kim_: anyway... moving along
*: Phoenix-wiki saw someone who'd never left a back edit summary
kim_: let's see what we can salvage :-)
Qst: Anyone using Skype here?
kim_: so what needs to be done for us to reverse our position ...
Sniperz11: 2 things - 1) he's actually talking, rather than simply silently editing, 2) only 47 edits - he's a newbie and 3) Its obvious he doesn't know WP policies
kim_: Qst, lots are... possibly a future lecture will be on voice on skype
Sniperz11: I'm on skype
Sardanaphalus: how about one of those "noone can edit this article for N days" padlocks
kim_: Sniperz11, where people are talking, there's always hope!
kim_: Sardanaphalus, I hate those :-P
Sardanaphalus: then 47-edit is with everyone else on talkpage
Sardanaphalus: oh okay
Phoenix-wiki: Sniperz47, he's been here 2 weeks, and has replied 13 times on the talk page, he would have been pointed ot the policies
kim_: Sardanaphalus, it might help, or it might turn the talk apge into a pressure-stove
Xav: Sard: the problem is everyone else who wants to contribute, and 47-edit will know exactly why it's locked, and might escalate
Sardanaphalus: i can imagine, i'm not sying i'm keen on them
Sardanaphalus: okay, i see
kim_: what I'd do is ask 47-edit dude to not edit for a bit and talk with me first :-)
Sardanaphalus: good point
kim_: possibly they would :-)
kim_: alright
kim_: so we're currently all agf
kim_: we'll ask others to be nice to 47-dude as well (I missed that)
kim_: and we talk with him first...
Xav: You could do something strange, like get a bunch of good faith folks to concoct a message on his talk page, trying to move things there
kim_: so what would need to be said or done to reverse that position
Phoenix-wiki: and the first thing you see when you create an account is "There's no need to worry about the policies, if it helps improe the encyclopedia it's okay", he knows full well he's not helping by readding it when people want to discuss it with him
Xav: but that's me thinking out loud.
Phoenix-wiki: the first few times, that's okay
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's what we explain to him ;-)
Xav: does he understand why discussion is important on WP?
Phoenix-wiki: but 32 times over 2 weeks?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, right, so you get to answer why we would change our position ...
Phoenix-wiki: and if he did it exactly twice a day, that implies he's familier with 3RR
Sardanaphalus: yes, i remember thinking when i first saw the "Ignore all rules" page soon after getting into wikipedia how it could backfire
Phoenix-wiki: and he's gaming the system
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, dude, DONE... we're at question 2 now :-)
Phoenix-wiki: oh
Sardanaphalus: "What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise"
Xav: (2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise)
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, if someone keeps talking about question 1a all the time, despite the channel moderator continuously telling him to move on. Is that obviously bad faith?
Sardanaphalus: hehe
Xav: jinx
Phoenix-wiki: no
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, just stupidity, right?
Phoenix-wiki: yes
Sardanaphalus: anyway, is it okay to go onto 2. now?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, glad we agree :-)
kim_: Sardanaphalus, C
kim_: kay :-)
Phoenix-wiki: [17:19] *ChanServ* The channel [#wikipedia-en-lectures] is not registered ???
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Phoenix-wiki: wwhy not?
Sardanaphalus: so, by reverse, does that mean let 47-edit go on with their behavior??
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, next time.
Phoenix-wiki: no
kim_: Sardanaphalus, By reverse, I think we mean that we should block 47-edit anyway
Sardanaphalus: i'll read that bit again
kim_: Sardanaphalus, well, they're generic questions...
Xav: Does he understand what he's doing wrong?
Phoenix-wiki: yes
Phoenix-wiki: he clearly does
kim_: Xav, we'll need to ask him :-)
Xav: I'm not convinced
Phoenix-wiki: so I don't think anyone can change my position
kim_: Xav, that's covered in the mediator approach at the bottom
Sardanaphalus: okay, if your position = block, what would change your mind - is that theq?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, ever?
Xav: I'm confused by mediator approach, it says talk page and stuff. I'm wondering if you meant mediators here should participate differently, or what?
Phoenix-wiki: kim_, possibly
kim_: Sardanaphalus, more like if your position is help him (which should be your initial position as a mediator or EA role anyway)
Xav: Phoenix-wiki, can you beyond reasonable doubt assume he Will. Not. Change?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you would be un-mediatable then
kim_: Sardanaphalus, what'd convince you to block
kim_: or in the case of phoenix, what would convince him not to
Sardanaphalus: well i guess i would change my mind if i and people had tried some more-than-usual ways to get thru but no joy
Sardanaphalus: um if that makes sense
Phoenix-wiki: Xav, who?
kim_: Sardanaphalus, it does
Phoenix-wiki: I thought change *my* position?
Xav: 47-edit
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, you need to know when to hold'em and when to fold 'em and when to walk away
Sardanaphalus: the question's relative, phoenix, that's what i misunderstood
*: Phoenix-wiki plays poker a lot
Sardanaphalus: flop
Phoenix-wiki: oh what he needs to do
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so when would you do the latter? :-)
Phoenix-wiki: oh
Xav: we're not even at river
Phoenix-wiki: if he finds referenes
Phoenix-wiki: if he fids references, that's okay then
Phoenix-wiki: finds*
kim_: Ok!
kim_: next question
Sniperz11: thank you!!
kim_: why do you think your position will gain consensus?
kim_: :-)
kim_: or why should others agree with your position
Sardanaphalus: because it AGF!!
kim_: 1 answer per person again, I guess :-)
Xav: They apparently already do
Phoenix-wiki: because it's complying with policies and benifitting the 'pedia the most
kim_: heh, that's easy then
Sardanaphalus: ya
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, that's not a complete answer. once again.. complying with policies and benefitting wikipedia are a means, but what's the goal?
kim_: well benefitting wikipedia is a goal, but that's too general
kim_: can you be more specific?
Sardanaphalus: mine is a bit too vague then too
kim_: Sardanaphalus, merely AGF might not be enough too... :-)
kim_: *nod*
Phoenix-wiki: I've made the article as accurate as it can be
Phoenix-wiki: by removing unreferenced material
Xav: I thought he referenced it?
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, fair enough. Can you also help others become better at editing with your approach?
Sardanaphalus: hmm why isn't Phoenix's answer enough?
Phoenix-wiki: and I've also informed the user of various policies on the talk page
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, so you've educated them
Sardanaphalus: oh okay, i get it
Phoenix-wiki: yes
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, did you tell them WHY the policies apply?
kim_: :-)
kim_: Phoenix-wiki, do you think they get it?
Phoenix-wiki: yes
kim_: those are questions to ask when you try to educate someone :-)
kim_: fair enough
Sardanaphalus: are u usually an educator, kim?
kim_: Sardanaphalus, mediator-type-person... what's the difference ;-)
kim_: on-wiki anway :-)
Sardanaphalus: indeed
Phoenix-wiki: next question?
kim_: ok
kim_: so when would the community back away from that position?
Phoenix-wiki: back away from it?
Xav: He could go on with the legal threats
kim_: like they would support you
kim_: but what would make them change their minds?
Sardanaphalus: specify the position to discuss pls
Phoenix-wiki: oh
kim_: Sardanaphalus, the one you formulated above... why would they support you?
Sardanaphalus: okay..
Phoenix-wiki: well I've made the article as accurate as it can be, and instructed a user on various policies
Phoenix-wiki: they would agree with this
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Xav: (3 or 4?)
Filll: back
kim_: Sardanaphalus, it's symmetrical ... what do you want to do and why <-> when would you drop that position ... what does the community want and why <-> when would they drop it
Filll: haha
kim_: Xav, we're at 4
kim_: wb Filll
Filll: good thing you are going to keep a record
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Filll: i can see what I missed
Sardanaphalus: i guess the community would support whichever approach it thought would leave the best test intact
Sardanaphalus: text*
kim_: best text
Sardanaphalus: yup
Phoenix-wiki: yes
kim_: so basically if our friend showed up with refs, they'd go one way
Phoenix-wiki: and the best text is the referenced text
Sardanaphalus: with bonus of bringing someone like 47-edit on board
kim_: and if he didn't show up with refs... they'd go the other way
Phoenix-wiki: yeah
kim_: Sardanaphalus, You're on the ball ;-)
kim_: Ok
Sardanaphalus: yay
kim_: so we can't really do the mediator role here
Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules ext
kim_: we've answered all the questions
kim_: now we actually do the doing bit
Sardanaphalus: dammit, i suddenly remembered, i gotta go, it's half past
Sniperz11: of course, the question when he does bring refs will turn to RS
Phoenix-wiki: 5:30
kim_: could each of you list the talk page statement you'd make?
kim_: Yup
kim_: 30 minutes for next one
Sardanaphalus: i'll read the transcript to see what happens
kim_: Sardanaphalus, Ok, have a nice day! Nice to have you!
Xav: Cya Sard
Sardanaphalus: thanks, it was interesting, bye!!
Xav: anaphalus
kim_: If you are an admin, or BOLD editor, or what have you...
kim_: * write on the talk page:
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kim_: basically formulate on the talk page
Xav: the hypothetical talk page, or the actual one? :-p
kim_: Xav, hypotehtical! ;-)
kim_: we've answered the 4 questions for ourselves, now we need to state them on talk
Xav: that'd be a lot of threads, though. What do you mean what should I say?
kim_: that's where the tire-hits the road
Xav: (that'd work on iRC)
kim_: yeah we're taking several steps
Xav: oh
kim_: Xav, just paraphrase then :-)
kim_: hmmm
Phoenix-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Phoenix-wiki&diff=prev&oldid=205155232
Xav: So we've gone through the scenario... you want me to innact it?
Texas_Patriot: Oh natural Phoenix.
Xav: 47: Grr! Rawr! Other people: Sorry we reverted you :-( 47: Law suits, but not really! Other people: Umm...
kim_: "I'd like to invite User:47editdude to stop editing here and talk with me first ... unless he does something really crazy ... I think other people will support that, so they can get on with editing, and we'll try to solve User47's problems separately. If 47dude keeps making trouble, of course I'd support banning"
kim_: something like that?
kim_: :-)
kim_: alright
kim_: I'm going to get some tea, and then next scenario :-)
Phoenix-wiki: quit
*: Xav thinks
*: Phoenix-wiki has quit ("Connection not reset by Peer - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Peer")
kim_: Poor Phoenix... that sucks ^^;;
kim_: Ok
Xav: And I have no context! This is hard...
Xav: ...as a mediator
*: kim_ has changed the topic to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions ... Next scenario ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Filll/AGF_Challenge#I_make_my_own_rules
Xav: Vernacular can be soo important.
kim_: does everyone agree with that one?
Filll: ah yes
Filll: that is a good one
kim_: Ok, 5 minute break , then we continue on that
*: kim_ needs 5 minutes :-P
Filll: the person that is about recognized the exercise I think
Filll: he is annoyed at me for making him an exercise
kim_: Filll, poor guy!
Filll: oh wel
Filll: haha
Filll: it was like 2 years ago
*: Xav thinks he knows who this guy is, but 2 year comment means probably not
Xav: I like it
Xav: scenario
Filll: i wont reveal it..at least not yet...and not in public probably
Filll: i dont wanna embarass him
Xav: Can someone decide unilaterally? No.
Filll: but it really happened
Filll: and he welcomed everyone new with his own welcoming message and own policies
Filll: which were not the same as the regular policies
Filll: haha
Xav: Erm... I'd probably let the horde take care of his revisions :-p
Filll: his revised policies still exist
kim_: Filll, Cool!
Filll: and you can still read them
kim_: :-)
kim_: I might want to ;-)
Filll: they are off wiki now though
kim_: they should have remained in the public record
Sniperz11: were they atleast halfway sane??
Filll: I would have to look them up
kim_: fair deal
Xav: Ooh, were these "policies" in userspace or something?
kim_: ok
*: kim_ takes a deep breath
Filll: but they are at the Raymond arritt expert withdrawal pages as a link
kim_: 20 more minutes
Filll: but you have to look at a lot of material to find it
kim_: and we're done for the day
kim_: alright
kim_: this new scenario
kim_: let's speed things up
kim_: normally you'd do all 4 questions more quickly too... we just took our time today
Texas_Patriot: Contact the user, let him know that he can propose an alteration or new policy, but altering or simply making his own is disruptive to the community. And ask him to remove them and go through the correct process. If he refuses, offer to open a cabal mediation.
Filll: anyone is welcome to do these on their own...by multiple choice, or essay answer or anonymously
kim_: Texas_Patriot, actually, you can alter or make your own policy, it's "What I Do" now ;-)
kim_: Ok
kim_: Texas_Patriot, but that's your answer to question 1 ? :-)
[AGK]: kim_: how much longer will your lectures last?
kim_: 19 more minutes today
kim_: we started for real at 17:30
kim_: and 1:30 (2* 45 minutes) is reasonable
Texas_Patriot: Question 1?
kim_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lectures/lecture2-questions
kim_: 1.The action you would like to take , and a personal reason why you are in support of that action.
kim_: 2. What would theoretically needs to be said or done to make you reverse that position, or where you would be willing to compromise
kim_: 3. A reason why you think others (will) support that position (ie, why is this likely to gain consensus).
Xav: My action: Be polite, inform him of what policy really is (Vassyana's principles essay, or something), gut feeling is he thinks he'll lawyer a way out of it (ironically), everyone is involved, he needs to stop, he needs to stop, be polite and inform him at first (by bullet points)
Texas_Patriot: Yes, I had that open, along with a few other windows, thanks for clarifying.
Qst: Fill: Did you try to add me on skype?
kim_: 4. What likely would need to be said or done to reverse the position of the community. , or where the community might be willing to compromise
Filll: i did qst
Filll: just clickyes
kim_: Xav, alright... and what would be needed to change your approach?
Xav: Oh. First be polite and tell him WHY he should stop (pref, without ever saying stop), and I support this action cuz it's right
kim_: Xav, it's "right" ... why is it right?
*: kim_ actually disagrees with everyone who thinks they should tell this guy to stop ... ;-)
kim_: The part I'd ask him to stop with is posting welcomes to newbies
kim_: :-)
Xav: Well, change his method at any rate
Xav: But giving people false policies isn't good
Texas_Patriot: Just about to say that part honestly Kim.
kim_: who says they're false? :-)
Sniperz11: arbcomm
Xav: Mostly everyone; I'm being pragmatic. I'm pretty inclusionist myself...
kim_: "can someone decide to unilaterally design their own policy statements?"
kim_: WP:CCC Wp:BOLD <- YES! ;-)
Sniperz11: wouldn't that be an oxymoron??
kim_: However, if he tells other people that this is how wikipedia works, to new users...
kim_: well ...
Sniperz11: since the WP Rules are "created by the community" through consensus and general agreement?
kim_: how does he know so sure :-)
kim_: Sniperz11, wikipedia doesn't have firm rules ;-)
Xav: well, sure, they can TRY. But I know this didn't work the way he intended from the outset (changing policy unilaterally)
Texas_Patriot: There are policies that are widely accepted among editors, then there are the user ones...
kim_: WP:IAR ;-)
kim_: Xav, exactly
kim_: he isn't doing what he thinks he's doing ;-)
*: kim_ snickers
Xav: Ugh. Turning on koan module.
Filll: I might even convince this gentleman to join us in IRC
kim_: Xav, ROTFL! ;-)
Filll: he might come anonymously though
Sniperz11: lol
kim_: that'd be fun
kim_: for after the lecture
kim_: ;-)
Filll: as a special guest
Filll: yep
kim_: which is 13 minutes from now
kim_: tell you what
Filll: he has VERY strong feelings about this
kim_: let's close a little early
Filll: haha
Filll: well he isnt on right now
Filll: but I will work on him
kim_: Ok
kim_: We've walked through one of Fillls scenarios
kim_: and we've asked 4 basic questions
Xav: I like these scenarios.
kim_: 1. what would you do
kim_: 2. what would you compromise on
kim_: 3. what would the community do
kim_: 4. what can the community compromise on
kim_: if you know the answers to these four questions
kim_: odds are, you will be able to convince the community to support your actions
kim_: Because it's not enough to know what you're going to do
kim_: and to do what you think is right
kim_: wikipedia is run by consensus
kim_: you need to convince other people to support your actions
kim_: else you will end up countered, reverted, or blocked
kim_: these 4 questions are not all you need to do , but they're a good framework :-)
kim_: So I hope you'll use them each time.
Xav: "He's not doing what he thinks he's doing" WTF? (yes, I know no HTML tags)
kim_: And Fillls AGF situations are a good exercise ;-)
kim_: So please everyone try to answer them in the way you've learned today
Xav: Oh, that makes sense suddenly. Durr.
kim_: and send your answers to Filll ... he's doing research, and you will help science by doing it ;-)
kim_: Xav, He thinks he's changing policy... while in reality he's writing pages :-)
Filll: yes we want to compile a nice sampling of answers
Xav: yup
Filll: and then in a few weeks
Filll: i will reveal what really happened
Filll: in each of tehse cases
Filll: and give some new exercises
Xav: cool! :-D
Filll: I hope I can get as many as possible from those who complain about how Wikipedia handles difficult situations to weigh in
Xav: I sure hope you don't expect concise answers :-p
Filll: since it is easy to criticize in the abstract..but what does one do in a concrete situation?
kim_: Filll, But here you're getting answers from people learning how to make the wiki work for them :-)
Filll: no of course not
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kim_: wb Fill2
Filll2: and sometimes one has to do something quite complicated
kim_: Ok
Filll2: Durova answered one
Filll2: verbally
kim_: :-)
Filll2: and gave a very very long and detailed answer
Filll2: very sophisticated
Filll2: since she has a LOT of experience in dealing with difficult situations
SteveCrossin3: is durova online? :)
kim_: She's cool on skype :-)
Filll2: no not right now
Filll2: it is early where she is
SteveCrossin3: :/
Filll2: somewhat
Sniperz11: speakin of skype...
Sniperz11: who here is on it?
Xav: I just got it. It's nice.
kim_: Right
kim_: just before we get into that... Lecture Over For Today
kim_: ----END ----
kim_: or some such
kim_: Alright
kim_: Feel free to discuss whatever ... I'm not moderating anymore :-)
*: kim_ puts down my hat
Sniperz11: is this off the log then from now on???
kim_: So Sniperz11 was asking who is on skype?
kim_: Sniperz11, this channel remains logged... do take that into account :-)
*: kim_ has changed the topic to: lecture over. Channel still logged. :-)
Xav: Let's form a secret cabal dedicated to taking over wikipedia!
Sniperz11: hehe
Xav: JOKING ZOMG
kim_: Xav, be careful
Xav: (sorry)
Sniperz11: i'm on skype, if anyone wants to add me
Sniperz11: same username.
Xav: I /am/ kidding :-)
kim_: Xav, once someone said "it won't let you delete the main page ... try it" on -en-admins
Xav: haha, I saw the AN/I :-D
kim_: "Sorry, just kidding!"
kim_: right after
kim_: very very oops :-P
kim_: alright
kim_: now I needed to talk with ... AGK about a skype session
kim_: Did everyone learn something from todays lecture? :_)
Xav: 1,2,3,4
Sniperz11: yes... ignore ALL rules
kim_: Sniperz11, <grin>
kim_: Sniperz11, yes you may do that... but what's the caveat to that? ;-)
kim_: Xav: Cool
*: Sniperz11 is still figuring that out
kim_: Sniperz11, you need to always be improving the wikipedia
kim_: the rules are there to advise you on how to do that
Sniperz11: yes
Sniperz11: just a question here for everyone, show of hands....
Sniperz11: are u an inclusionist or a deletionist?
Xav: I'm that one with the really long acronym bordering on inclusionist
*: SteveCrossin3 is now known as SteveCrosisn
kim_: but if you have to chose between improving wikipedia, or following the rules
kim_: improve wiki is first
*: SteveCrosisn is now known as SteveCrossin
kim_: I gotta talk about arranging a voice lecture next time
Sniperz11: good point Kim.
kim_: TTYL
Qst: Filll: mind a pm?
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Filll2: yes on skype
Filll2: send me on
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Xav: kim_
Xav: I need access to chat, so I can sort this damn chat thing out
Xav: Is there a respective chat?
Xav: wrong chat thinger
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*: Notify: Vassyana is online (kubrick.freenode.net).
Xav: kim_ is there a respective chat for that conference?
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kim_bruning: Vassyana, hello here some more
kim_bruning: POKE
Sniperz11: whats goin on now?
kim_bruning: Just gonna introduce Vassyana and Filll
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*: kim_ pokes Vassyana some more
kim_: guess he's got some issues
Python: interface unloaded