Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Mina (singer)/1

Mina (Italian singer)

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: No action. Issues raised have mostly been addressed and the article improved. Geometry guy 20:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

THis article was recently passed as GA status by User:Rp0211. The article is:

1 Not well written by any stretch of the imagination; e.g. Mina's TV appearances in 1959 presented the first female rock and roll singer in Italy; constant changes of tense; Her ballad "Grande grande grande" was carried to the U.S., U.K. and more English-speaking countries' charts byShirley Bassey in 1973.; n spring 1966, Maurizio Costanzo and Ghigo De Chiara wrote the dark lyrics[neutrality is disputed] of "Se telefonando" ("If Over the Phone") as the theme for the TV program Aria condizionata.[43];After a break of three months, Mina returned by recording and performing the song "Non credere" ("Disbelieve"), composed by Luigi Clausetti and Pietro Soffici, with lyrics by Mogol, in April. are just a few examples.

-- Done--Diannaa ^(Talk) 20:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2 Referencing, Two dead links; Youtube and fan sites used as references; several references do not appear to support the stated facts, e.g. ref #57, ref #90; ref #10

-- Done-- Jaan Pärn (talk) 22:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Several references to online sources lack access dates, also several foreign language references do not state the appropriate language. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--

Done--Jaan Pärn (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

3 Depth and detail - OK

4 Neutrality - ~~several POV statements~~

Can you point out which statements lack neutrality? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 22:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:Diannaa's copy-editing has removed the PoV statements. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

5 Stability - appears OK

6 Images - Non free imagery should not be used in BLPs, even if there is a non-free use rationale.

Can you point out the policy (if it is not merely your opinion). There are no free images available of the singer, while the article would suffer tremendously from a lack of an image, given that the appearance of the person is of primary importance to this biography and is discussed in detail. The singer makes every possible effort not to be photographed, wherefore it is impossible to create a free image of her. I have tried my best to find a free photo. Do you sincerely think the removal of the image would improve the article? --Jaan Pärn (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject was not expecting to be photographed. Images of living persons that have been generated by Wikipedians and others may be used if they have been released under a copyright licence that is compatible with Wikipedia:Image use policy.WP:BLP#Images

Pictures of people still alive, groups still active, and buildings still standing; provided that taking a new free picture as a replacement (which is almost always considered possible) would serve the same encyclopedic purpose as the non-free image. This includes non-free promotional images. WP:Non-free_content#Images –– Jezhotwells (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, it is impossible to get a free shot of Mina. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand but Wikipedia policy is fairly clear on this and such images are often deleted form BLPs. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 23:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The image in question already " was proposed for deletion as a replaceable non-free content. The result was to Keep the file, as no adequate free-licensed file exists or can be created to fulfill the limited role performed by this file at the time deletion was considered." The policy says a replacement "is almost always considered possible". Almost=actually not. This is exactly the kind of exceptional case we have here. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please take this to WP:BLPN is you disagree with the policy "Images of living persons that have been generated by Wikipedians and others may be used if they have been released under a copyright licence that is compatible with Wikipedia:Image use policy." If you examine other BLPs you will find many others that do not have an image, simply beacuse of this policy. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 00:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article should have been put on hold whilst these issues were addressed. This is the second time in 24 hours that this reviewer has failed to use the on hold possibility. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 09:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Discussion here should focus on whether the article meets the GA criteria. Requirements that go beyond those criteria are for discussion elsewhere. Concerning images, the criteria require "valid fair use rationales" (6a). The current rationale is *not* valid, as the image is used as a decorative element in the infobox, not for critical commentary as stated in the rationale. To justify the rationale, the image would need to be moved to the "Musical style and public image" section, where Mina's public image *is* discussed, and equipped with a suitable caption (per criterion 6b) explaining how the image is related to the surrounding text. Wikipedia's requirements for fair use go beyond those required by law. Geometry guy 09:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Her appearance is discussed in the lead so I don't see why it should be removed from there.--Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for putting this point more precisely. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 16:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There is no evidence an effort was undertaken to get an image, taken by someone while she was active, released under a free license -

What would that evidence be? I have run an in-depth search on Google. A few years ago I contacted the minamazzini.com website with the request. They seemed happy to let Wikipedia use her images but I don't think they understood the concept of free license. I can assure no such image exists under any free license. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the current one should be deleted if it's only for decoration, as it is now.

You are being straightforwardly destructive. Her apperance, image and style are one of the focuses of the article. It would suffer greatly with the removal of the image. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, we are talking about Wikipedia policies here, as has been pointed out above. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I showed above, the inclusion of an image in the purpose of critical commentary where no free equivalent can be created is in accordance with the policy. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Geometry guy says: "Concerning images, the criteria require "valid fair use rationales" (6a). The current rationale is *not* valid, as the image is used as a decorative element in the infobox, not for critical commentary as stated in the rationale. To justify the rationale, the image would need to be moved to the "Musical style and public image" section, where Mina's public image *is* discussed, and equipped with a suitable caption (per criterion 6b) explaining how the image is related to the surrounding text. Wikipedia's requirements for fair use go beyond those required by law." Please address that. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure about the sources: madrepennuta.it, hitparadeitalia.it, galleriadellacanzone.it, mon-amie-hardy-rose.nice-topic.com, etc. look like fanpages to me that don't pass as reliable sources. Hekerui (talk) 16:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can argue about the rest but to call Hit Parade Italia a fan page? It is the most comprehensive chart history around, yearly commentaries, Sanremo statistics. You are way out of line with your trigger-happiness here. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. they don't look very reliable to me. –– Jezhotwells (talk) 16:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you show that other reliable sources use Hit Parade Italia without comment as a reliable source. Please remember that the burden of proof is on you. Please also assume good faith. No-one here is attacking you. We are trying to get the best quality artciles. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Now that the image of Mina has been moved and captioned, I consider the fair use rationale valid. I wish editors luck with efforts to find a free image, as this would improve the article, but this is no longer a GA issue in my view.

Reliability of sources can be a GA issue, particularly where citations are required per 2b. It is important to consider the material cited as well as the reliability of the source: some claims require more reliable sources than others. In this respect, I note:

"The idea for the song "Love can grow at any moment at any place" had come to Paoli while lying on the bed of a brothel and looking at the purple ceiling." is sourced to madrepennuta.it. Since the sentence suggests a living person may have been paying for sex, the reliability of the source should be very high, irrespective of differences between Italian and US social mores.
galleriadellacanzone.it is used to source quotations and statistics, both of which require citation to reliable sources in 2b.

Geometry guy 21:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]