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Balinese dancers

[edit]
Original - Balinese dancers wearing elaborate headgear, photographed in 1929.
Reason
High resolution period portrait of dancers in traditional costume. Restored version of File:COLLECTIE TROPENMUSEUM Portert van twee jonge Balinese danseressen TMnr 10004678.jpg.
Articles this image appears in
Bali, Headgear, Balinese dance
Creator
unknown
  • Support as nominator --Durova379 22:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not enough EV IMO, and I don't feel convinced with the restoration. Since you've completely manipulated the background, I feel that a better job could have been done to make the tones as even as possible. I'm specifically talking about the left portion next to the girl's arm. I also see some smudges that were not visible in the original (if you'd like, I could leave some image notes on Commons). ZooFari 01:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question What advantage does this offer over a contemporary (and colour) photograph? I've seen holiday snapshots that look quite similar. Noodle snacks (talk) 03:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not entirely sure that the analogy works - Napoleon is a historical figure, these girls are not (and I don't think the costume has changed a great deal). GeraldM does make a fair point about the ear piercing though as far as a cursory look around can tell me. Noodle snacks (talk) 10:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, so don't use Napoleon. An authentic Mayan [insert object] is likely worth tens of thousands of dollars while a reproduction, even if made from precisely the same materials, to the same pattern, etc, etc is likely worth little more than the cost of materials. Why? The history itself provides value. A print made by Ansel Adams will always be more valuable than one made from his negatives by someone else, even if they think they've matched it perfectly. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would you be willing to keep an open mind regarding the encyclopedic value? This image was one of six that the Tropenmuseum curators selected per a request that they choose material of great importance. The six files arrived last Friday with my first cup of coffee, which due to time zone differences was nearly the end of the business week in Amsterdam. They did not include the reasons for their selections. Last night I emailed the museum with a request for information. Received an auto reply from their media liaison which seems to say (if I can make sense of Dutch cognates) that she has taken the day off. The encyclopedic value of this image seemed good enough to nominate without better information, but more will probably be forthcoming soon. Please be patient. Durova380 17:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • (on Staxringold's) I would like to add to that comment that the use of "history", IMO, should be understood as some value added by some extra information known about the subject, e.g., inn the examples provided, knowing it is really a Mayan thing or knowing it is a Ansel Adams' and not only the date. We do need the info that the museum is going to provide. franklin  01:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FYI our contact person is out of the office untill Wednesday.. GerardM (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. a picture requested to restore by the Tropenmuseum. Shows the young age of the dancers when Balinese dances were not yet a tourist attraction. Also have a look at the ears of the girl.. another thing you do not see any more. GerardM (talk) 08:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support There are a lot of advantages to a contemporary, colour picture (the costumes are colourful). But per myself above. Noodle snacks (talk) 10:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm not convinced with the argument that a color image of the same subject could be easily obtained, so the black and white image has less values than color photos. If we already have such image, please present to here. I searched for a free image of Balinese dancers in high quality at Flickr, but well, could not get one. Of course, color images of the luxurious gold headgear or costume would be very nice if we can get them, but I don't agree with the notion that a black and white photo has less values depicting the same subject. The photo captures its own nice mood, and I actually prefer more dramatic manipulation in the level. One thing that gives me curious is that the girls look very young as compared with Bali dancers commonly found in the present. If any editors knowledgeable of Bali culture or Indonesian culture tell us about any possible changes on the dancers' costume, and activity through time, that would be very nice though.--Caspian blue 07:19, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for dancers a different crop is needed. This looks like they are riding an elephant or sitting.  franklin  14:17, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks very much. The word should be the one for when you decide when taking the picture. Composition maybe? Let me try again. For dancers a different composition is needed. This looks like they are riding an elephant or sitting.  franklin  19:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Gerard. 22:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
  • adding to my vote: limited EV in both articles in which it is used. In Bali it is competing(with respect to information provided[not necessarily in quality]) with a similar image. Would like to hear more about the museum claim for restoration. So far, from what is said doesn't seems to be a reason to claim EV. About the time, and black and white topic: I see the value of dated items as showing lost values. This image is showing Balinese dancers in some sort of traditional costumes but, is it showing Balinese dancers in 1929 as opposed to what dancers wear (or can wear) now? Is it 1929 specifically important year for the dance in Bali or for this kind of costumes? Are these two specific dancers important in some sense? If none of these has a strong Yes as answer then how is the EV claim supported? The preference for a 1929 picture has to be like the difference between a picture of a newly invented shirt or a shirt that is no longer used as opposed to a picture of a tie in 1929 that is equal to one in 2009 but only old. Where this costumes started to be used in that year? Maybe the people of the museum can answer some of these. The placement of the picture in headgear and in bali is very resent. Although it looks very well there (for headgear only) it is not very clear yet whether it will last.  franklin  00:32, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment A little of (maybe original) research, shows that hands are a key part in the Balinese traditional dance (see Balinese dance and these are not shown in the picture making the choices of the photographer not so happy ones. On the other hand, the dancers are young and this is emphasized by the third article (newly added) and shown by the image (OR here too or at least using Wikipedia as source).  franklin  02:54, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Had expected a reply from the Tropenmuseum staff by now. No further explanation for the selection has yet been forthcoming, although they chose this specifically per a request for high ev material. Perhaps suspend the nomination pending further information? Durova382 01:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suspended pending further information. Makeemlighter (talk) 04:43, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Bali's culture is now, for better or worse, influenced by the needs of representing it to the tourist industry, an industry that only really got started in the 1930s. (See Adrian Vickers, Bali: a Paradise Created for further reading). Voters interested in the EV this image may or may not have should take this into account. Mostlyharmless (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not promoted --Makeemlighter (talk) 08:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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