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Bombardment of Barcelona

[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 29 Aug 2010 at 14:37:06 (UTC)

Original - Bombardment of Barcelona in 1938 by the Italian air-force during the Spanish Civil War.
Reason
A good, clear photo showing important historical events.
Articles in which this image appears
Spanish Civil War, History of FC Barcelona
Wikipedia:Featured_pictures/History/War
Creator
Italian airforce
Unconcluded discussion about copyright
:* this might help. This is my first nomination, so any improvements would be welcomed. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 15:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the source states the origin (PROCEDÈNCIA: Archivio Militare dell’Areonautica Italiana, Roma) as the archive of the Italian Airforce that does not necessarily mean they were the author, they could have got it from anywhere. So, how are we certain that Italian copyright applies? IMHO this needs to be cleared up. ww2censor (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The italian air force produced it during their bomb raid. As written above, they bombed the city and it's not like there's a lot of amateur fliers in the sky during a bombardment taking photos, which then mysteriously end up in the Italian air-force's archive. The notion that the Italian air-force did bomb the city, but someone else took the photo is beyond me. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 19:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, but you and ww2censor are questioning different things, so my above answer was to him. To break it down, 1) was the picture produced by the Italian air-force? Yes, I think that's fairly established by now. 2) Can the picture be considered "an Italian work"? Yes I really think so. Being a product by the fascist army, a part of the Italian state, it does not get any more Italian. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 20:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(outdented)* From the license template: "it was either created in Italy or may be considered an Italian work within the meaning of Italian law" emphasis added Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 21:50, 20 August 2010 (UTC)][reply]
Ok, that's one discussion to have, but that's not actually the discussion I'm trying to have- yes, the Italian law says that it is PD if it is considered an Italian work and so on and so forth, but what I'm asking is why we care. Surely, in this case, we should be considering the Spanish law. If minor nation x says "any work taken in Europe in the last ten years in PD", we aren't going to take a 2005 picture from France and say "oh, it's public domain!" J Milburn (talk) 00:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this case very similar to how we use works by the US military? If a DoD employed photographer takes a picture in a foreign country, it's considered PD, correct? Wouldn't a similar logic apply here? Cowtowner (talk) 00:21, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not the same thing, at all. The US Military takes a picture, and so it belongs to them- they then release it. That's the same under (pretty much) any law. Again, IANAL, but I would like to see some solid reasoning as to why we're going with the Italian law here, other than the fact it conveniently gives us a nice PD image. J Milburn (talk) 01:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a lawyer either; but it seems to stand to reason that the Italian military takes a photo, its copyright belongs to them. That copyright expires, ergo it is PD. Cowtowner (talk) 03:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I am not saying the copyright doesn't/didn't belong to them, but it's not that they have released it. You're claiming that it's out of copyright according to Italian law; I'm saying it's Spanish law we should care about. See what I'm saying? J Milburn (talk) 07:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
From the article it states "or may be considered national works" emphasis added. Being a product of the State's air-force, does it get any more national? I'm no expert, would like some expert opinion, but I think this one is pretty safe. By the way, when the negatives were produced in Italy, does that make the photographs Italian? Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 14:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know that, Milburn. But I still don't see your rationale for using Spanish law beyond the fact that the Italians were in their airspace. Like Sandman says, I think the creator trumped that in this case. Could you explain yourself further and perhaps excuse me for being thick? Cowtowner (talk) 16:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The picture was taken in Spain- therefore, Spanish law applies? That seems pretty clear to me? If it was published elsewhere, there may be a discussion to be had- this is the point, I don't really know right now. J Milburn (talk) 17:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, though, you say "I think the creator trumped that in this case", but I really don't think we should be promoting this unless we're sure. The point I'm trying to make is that, at this stage, we really need a clarification of what law applies, whether this is PD in the country whose law matters and whether this is PD in the US, rather than this guesswork. J Milburn (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you, but I still don't think it matters. Look at many of the images we have taken from photographers traveling in countries which are foreign to them. The images they take are theirs and they take that copyright with them. I see no reason to expect that the Spanish government would have any control over the actions of an Italian photographer unless he were producing an image of something that was copyrighted in Spain (And I can't see that being the case here). To me, the issue is very cut and dried. Cowtowner (talk) 00:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is not the same thing. I am not saying that the Italian Airforce doesn't/didn't own the image- that is not disputed- we are disputing which country's copyright law applies. I take a picture in Spain, develop it in Italy, move to Switzerland, then settle in Sweden (by the way, I'm a Norwegian citizen born in Finland to Swedish parents). The picture belongs to me in all those places, and it may be PD in some of them, but we're concerned about whether this is PD in the source country and/or the United States. This work may be PD in Italy, it may be PD in Iran, it may be PD in Sealand. We don't care. What matters is whether it is PD in the United States, and that can depend on whether it is public domain in the source country. J Milburn (talk) 09:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Outdent) Under Spanish law collective works (I assume this would qualify) are protected for 70 years after their publication; if this image were ever published in Spain (and I haven't seen any evidence that it has been), it would have been done so most likely during the war which ended in 1939 making the work PD. Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have had to be published in Spain for their law to apply? Cowtowner (talk) 17:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Taken, I would guess. But this is the thing- guesswork. J Milburn (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, but at some point we have to draw the line and say an image wasn't actually published in a given country. The burden of proof, if I can call it that, is really on establishing that the image was published in Spain for this case. Looking at the source, it was provided by an Italian archive (where it is PD) and therefore, presumably, no one owns the copyright in Spain or it would not have been allowed to be published in the manner it was. Cowtowner (talk) 05:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What law are you citing there? I don't see why we should assume that, just because it wasn't published in Spain, it has nothing to do with Spain. Spain can't stop it being published in Italy, just as hypothetical British museums can't stop images being published on hypothetical American websites. A lot of things that are PD in the US are not PD in the source country- anything published before 1923 is PD in the US, despite the fact it may not be in England, Spain, Italy or Iran. Let's go back to basics- this image is claimed public domain. Why is it public domain in the United States? J Milburn (talk) 09:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I wasn't the one who asserted that, the tag on the file page states that because it is a simple photograph created before 1976 which makes it PD in Italy. Because it was PD in Italy, it has become PD in the US. It does not appear to have subsisting copyright issues. This comes back to the root issue of whether Italian law matters or Spanish law does. I still believe that Italian law does because this is an Italian work because it was created by their air force. Simply, Italian copyright law applies because it is a national work even though it was created in Spain. Cowtowner (talk) 19:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And the fact it is PD in Italy means that it is PD in the US... How? J Milburn (talk) 23:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The legalese is here. I believe the pertinent part is (b) which effectively states that if it's public domain there, it's public domain in the US. Cowtowner (talk) 00:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and the "the source country of the work" is Spain? J Milburn (talk) 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I'm not sure that is the relevant part... Basically, I'd be willing to slap this with this template, apart from the fact this is PD in the Italy, not, as far as I can see, the source country, which is Spain. J Milburn (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the source country of the work would have to be Italy: it is an Italian national work because it was created by their air force. Cowtowner (talk) 23:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting ridiculous- we're going around in circles here, where I say "why does Italian law apply?" and you say "Because it was taken by an Italian" and I say "but it was taken in Spain" and you say "yeah, by an Italian". To use a simple and flawed analogy, an American citizen can't walk the streets of the UK carrying a handgun and say "it's alright- I'M AMERICAN!" Until we see some evidence that this is PD beyond "I'd like it to be" or "it would make sense for it to be" or "it'd be convenient for it to be", we really can't promote this. I'm on the verge of nominating this for deletion. J Milburn (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's been ridiculous for a while now. The analogy above is, indeed, flawed. Personally the only analogous situation is DoD works as I've mentioned it above. We may as well, as you suggest, nom it for deletion and suspend this to get some fresh and presumably more experienced people working on it. We've clearly gone nowhere. Cowtowner (talk) 02:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not analogous- those works are PD because of who made them, not because their copyright has run out. I'm not disputing that copyright did/does belong to the Italian Airforce (who could then, as the DOD does, release them into the public domain if they so wish). Instead, you're saying "this did belong to the Italian Airforce, but has now become public domain because of its age". J Milburn (talk) 08:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have taken the liberty of collapsing the long-winded argument. We have to move forward, so what is the next step? Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 08:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per nom. The unusually lucky lighting angle is an interesting effect I haven’t seen before in aerial bombardment photos before. And when I click on the fully zoomed version, it is quite sharp and interesting. Very unusual for its genre. Greg L (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support very interesting Hive001 contact 20:29, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Presuming copyright checks out. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Presuming copyright checks out. P. S. Burton (talk) 22:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I believe that the image is PD, entirely on the basis of creator. Unless this was published in Spain at any time, I have no idea how or why Spanish law applies - it never applies to DoD works on Wikipedia, and never will. Mostlyharmless (talk) 11:01, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not the same thing. The DOD takes pictures and then releases them; that works under any law. What is being claimed here is that a picture taken in Spain is PD under Italian law, and so must be PD in the US. Very different thing. As I said below, at the very least, we will need a tag explaining the copyright status in the US- at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if it's PD in Italy, only whether it's PD in the US. J Milburn (talk) 10:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As the discussion above was collapsed I'll just put in my closing thoughts here (Milburn and I can go on forever, I've little more to say on the matter after this). I believe the image is PD. I think it is rational to believe that the Italian air force has the rights to this image and that they no longer hold the copyright to it (as a result of Italian law making any image before 1976 PD). As I showed above, because it is PD there, it is PD in the US. As for its status in Spain, it would have had to have been published in Spain for the nation's laws to come into consideration here. I've seen no evidence of this and even if it were published there it would have likely been during the war which would still make this image PD as Spanish copyright for collective works expires 70 years after its first publication. The Spain point is, however, moot given the situation in Italy. As for how to continue, I would suggest that we contact all of the voters and see if a broader consensus is reached on the image's status. If the consensus is in favor of it being PD, we can promote the image and move on. If Milburn still feels strongly enough about this after the fact it can be nominated for deletion and delisting. Cowtowner (talk) 03:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • At danger of repeating myself (and, for what it's worth, I strongly think the discussion should not have been colllapsed- it was relevant and unconcluded) we cannot promote this until we are certain about the copyright. At the very least, we will need to see a copyright tag explaining its status in the US as well as in Italy- at the end of the day, we don't really care what its status is in Italy unless it is pertinent to its status in the US (which it may or may not be, yadda yadda). It wouldn't even be important on Commons, where an image is required to be PD in the source country (in this case, Spain- it was taken in Spain, that's its source, that's where it comes from- there's really no point debating that) and the US. J Milburn (talk) 10:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That tag is on there. It does explain why it is PD in Italy and therefore in the US. You know how I feel about the source. If we reach a consensus about the copyright here then we can promote it. If we don't we'll suspend and look for other avenues be it a deletion nomination or something else. Cowtowner (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support if PD, delete otherwise. I suspect it is not PD, but FPC is not the right forum for deciding this point. --Avenue (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Ok, nominated at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files/2010 August 28#File:Barcelona bombing.jpg, and I will be requesting some outside input from various places. Can we please suspend this nomination until we get some firm evidence this is PD or it is deleted? J Milburn (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suspended until copyright status is clarified. Makeemlighter (talk) 03:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Promoted File:Barcelona bombing.jpg --Makeemlighter (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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