Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/List of Smallville episodes

List of Smallville episodes

~~It fails 1(a) of WP:WIAFL, there are no links to episodes. Featured lists such as Desperate Housewives, X-Men, and The Sopranos have links to their episodes, why Smallville has to be different.~~

~~It also fails 1(b) of WP:WIAFL, there are no episode summaries. The featured lists mentioned above contain episode summaries, why shouldn't this list have them, too?~~

This list does not exemplify Wikipedia's very best work. This is a bad example of WP:LOE and should not be used as a model for future lists of episodes.

~~Delist~~ --Crzy cheetah 07:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Delisting - This is a bogus delist. No where does it say that you have to have a synopsis for the episodes, and per WP:EPISODE, you are not going to have an article for every single episode. We have season pages that detail the episodes. There are seven seasons; adding a plot would just make this page too much. List of The Simpsons episodes are the same way, and a delisting of that list was proposed, and it failed. Sorry, but this list is comprehensive, and well sourced. If you want a plot summary, click the link to the season you want, and you'll get your plot summary where there is more room to have it. And I'm missing the part in 1a that says "you have to have links to episodes that don't exist". Or, 1b that says you have to have episode summaries. This is a list of pure OOU information, minus the brief summary of the show itself that is in the lead. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 11:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I am confused. If those episodes don't exist, then why are you listing them? 1(b) is mostly about comprehensiveness and since I didn't see any plot summaries, I --Crzy cheetah 20:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Why am I not linking every word in the sentence that I am typing. If a page does not exist, or the page is a mere redirection to a larger topic, why would I link it over and over again? That makes no sense. Why are the titles there, um, because that is the title of the episode. It isn't IU information. It's what the writers call it. Also, the Pilot article is linked, so at least one has a link to a viable article. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - I was under impression that the episodes didn't exist. A page can be created containing plot summary of what happened in that episode, and cast, including guest stars. Don't you think it's unfair to the aforementioned FLs which have existing pages of episodes?--Crzy cheetah 21:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't unfair. A article's quality is not determined by who it links to, or doesn't in this case. Those other FL's have tons of episode articles which fail notability guidelines. The entire season 1 episode articles were all redirected to Smallville (season 1). All were redirected, except for the pilot, as that had secondary sources asserting its notability, and enough OOU information to warrant separation from the main article. There are still season 2 articles, but that is only because they haven't been redirected yet. They will be soon enough. Technically, they could be redirected now, since everything on them is on the season page, including the trivia sections, and they were part of the discussion that was held about merging them over two months ago. Since Wiki isn't a big plot summary, individual episode articles that are just plots and no assertion of notability are not good. That is why there is a notability review going around and addressing those issues with all the television show editors. You can link the season 2 pages if you like, but in about a months time, I'll have the season 2 article up to par with the season 1 article and they'll be redirected (per the discussion that took place months ago) at that time. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose delisting because the list fits the criteria just fine. 1(a) has links to the season pages, which have the desired plot information for each episode in that season. Perhaps the links to the season pages can be clarified to mention plot summaries within as a reasonable compromise? Listing all plot summaries for all episodes in seven seasons in one page seems like a bit much, and the information seems broken up appropriately among the current pages. I've been watching the evolution of episode articles on Wikipedia, and I would actually say that this list and its related pages served as a far better model by focusing on OOU information. The nominator's mentioned featured lists link to episode articles that do not establish a great deal of real-world context. This Smallville list keeps a focus on the OOU information and does not need to reiterate plot summaries when they already exist comfortably on the season pages. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I totally missed those links to the seasons' articles. How can you clarify that without messing up the setup?--Crzy cheetah 20:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Delisting - The page is a fantastic example of how to do a list page correctly, though I kinda think that Erik proposes a valid compromise. Personally, I like the idea of links (as opposed to summaries) to individual episodes, but Big has noted that not all episodes have summaries. That leaves us with the links in place to the season pages, which allows this page to remain relatively unchanged. As Erik has noted, this page is an excellent example of a good list page, and deserves to remain as an example to others creating their list pages. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment ~~I don't like that airdates come first in the table. I believe the episode titles have to be first, since it's a "list of episodes' and not "airdates of episodes".~~ Is there a specific reason why the {{Episode list}} template isn't used? I can help out here if you approve. --Crzy cheetah 20:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

**The airdates come first because some episodes have more than one writer or director (sometimes more than one in both fields) and with the airdates on the right side it would cram all the columns together. I moved it over to the right because airdates should be on the end, whether first or last, as they would be really weird if they showed up in the middle. It wasn't a problem for most season, but to have uniformity, I had to do it to all of them. I don't use that template because it is unnecessarily large for something very simple. Also, it's an ugly table. Since the title is clearly identified, and not hiding in the wing, I don't see an issue. If the airdates can fit on the side, without crunching the other sections, that's fine. But they tending to cause a doubling up of row size for the other sections. I'll see about putting them on the right again. I may have changed the table since the last time I did that, but I could swear that was the issue with putting them on the right. I'm testing it as I type, and so far the first 3 seasons look fine. Only 3 more to go. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- - I dont' know what the problem was, that made me move it to the left (because it was originally on the right), but it doesn't exist anymore so I put them back on the right. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 21:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Looks much better. Thanks.--Crzy cheetah 21:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - Do you mind putting the episode #s of the seasons, such as for Season 2, 22(1), 23(2), etc?

P.S. What Do OOU and IU stand for?--Crzy cheetah 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like so? BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IU = In-Universe. OOU = Out-Of-Universe. A lot of articles on fictional subjects tend to have a problem writing a lot of in-universe detail with no real-world context. This has been an ongoing issue with episode articles, which have a lot of in-universe detail but not enough encyclopedic content for stand-alone articles in some cases. That's why the plot summaries are compressed into season pages. More dense plot summaries can be found at the Smallville Wikia, which is focused on in-universe content. Bignole was involved with discussion about this, so he can tell you more if you'd like. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Delisting Unlike the other lists, it is a good thing that this does not have links to episode pages, because all those episode pages are in violation of WP:EPISODE and contain nothing but fancruft, plot summary and trivial. Corpx 00:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose delist per Erik: the links to each separate season list satisfy 1a. Also, though a bit of a digression, I think that maybe WP:EPISODE should have a new guideline that any series with more than 5 seasons should do what has been done here: keep the basics, and break off plot info, etc., to separate season lists. Cliff smith 00:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Withdraw <joke>When I was nominating this list here, I was just checking to see how active WP:FLRC is.</joke> Seriously though, I am amazed to see how active this nomination is. Anyway, since there are so many opposes, I accept a withdrawal of this nomination. If anyone knows how to do that, please do it. I just hope this list got better in the last 24 hours with those minor edits.--Crzy cheetah 06:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]