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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 17:45, 10 October 2011 [1].

Nightwish discography

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Nightwish discography (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Rodrigo18 (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because i believe i've solved all the problems cited in this last nomination; if there's any other problem i'd be happy to solvei it too. Rodrigo18 (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose based on the speed I was able to find problems with the page.

  • The very first thing I did happened to be a click on the EPs link in the box on the right, but the link doesn't work. Done Repared
  • The infobox at right claims 1 EP, the lede says there're two. When I scroll to the table it shows 1. Done Repared
  • Similar discrepancies for compilations.  Done also repared
  • In the lede "finnish" should be "Finnish".  Done changed
  • Lede: "The band wormed"?! I can't guess what this is supposed to be.  Done sorry, i meant "formed"
  • Lede: "Tarja" should be the musician's family name.  Done changed to "Turunen"
  • Lede: The 1st sentence of the 2nd graph is a long run-on thing with misused commas.  Done I tried to change a few commas, hope it's ok now.
  • In "1998, 2000 and 2002 respectively", add a comma after "2002". And "Nightwish" is still misspelled, as noted above by myself and below by Greatorangepumpkin. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 01:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)  Done i added the coma and i corrected "Nightwish"[reply]
  • Lede: Revise "1 million copies" and similar to "one million copies" and similar.  Done decided to use only words
  • Lede: Comma needed after "October 6, 2007".  Done i added the comma
  • Lede: No dots required in "E.P./live album". And what is that, anyway? Isn't it just a live EP?  Done changed to "live album"
  • Lede: "third-best-selling band and the third-best-selling musical entity in Finland" wholly unsupported by ref provided. Even the "827,000 certified copies" isn't easy to verify; did you get that figure by adding up numbers on the Musiikkituottajat - Tilastot page?  Done i erased this paragraph since i couldn't get any reliabe source for it.
  • Lede: Period needed at the end.
  • The tables are inconsistent with each other and not consistent with current styling and accessibility guidelines. Please see WP:DISCOGSTYLE.
Look, what exactly do you mean here, cause i don't see any inconsistence about the rules.Rodrigo18 (talk) 09:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's unfortunately not clear yet whether we can call them rules, but I do know recent FLs have been geared to conform with WP:DISCOGSTYLE, not least because WP:DISCOGSTYLE tries to incorporate better conformance to WP:ACCESS, which intersects with the MOS, required for FLs.
In particular:
  • Similar columns in separate, similar tables should be the same width. In Nightwish discography they appear to vary wildly.  Done see below
  • Even just the column headings are capitalized differently.  Done See below.
  • The country labels for the peaks should be in alpha order, following the home country (here, FIN).  Done i put FIN in front but i left the rest as they were before.
  • The extra-small typeface used esp. in the Details columns is way too small, and unnecessarily so.  Done See below.
  • The column and row headings should be marked up as such, and given scope identifiers (see the code behind the sample tables at WP:DISCOGSTYLE).  Done See below.
  • The heading and link for the Certs column is no longer that used in this article. See the examples. Done See below.
  • Table footer mark-up like | colspan="100" style="font-size:8pt; text-align: center"| is unnecessary. Copy from the examples and adapt.  Done Se below.
  • Not done: The table footers include code like | colspan="100" style="font-size:8pt; text-align: center". With the alignment default already set for the table, you can remove the redundant text-align: center" here. Change font-size:8pt; to font-size:90%;. Also, change the "100" to the actual number of columns being spanned (e.g., 13). — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this clarifies some of what I was talking about above. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • More examples of DISCOGSTYLE changes yet to make:
  • Please remove the bold formatting you added to the album tiles. That is, instead of '''''[[Angels Fall First]]''''', use ''[[Angels Fall First]]'' .
  • Again, mark up the row headings as what they are. That means using the exclamation mark instead of piping symbol, and adding the scope="row" code. For the row in the previous example, use !scope="row"|''[[Angels Fall First]]''.
  • At the top of the tables, add a default alignment, as in {| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;" border="1". Now you can remove the superfluous |align="center" from all of the peak columns.
— JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The references are bogus. I quickly saw several that make me doubt the whole page. Allmusic has nothing to do with Hung Medien, but they appear in the same refs together. You fail to mention Allmusic at all in what look like the actual Allmusic refs. Many (all?) of the ref titles are made up or just erroneous (I might go visit that Date Bank, though). The first ref and the last ref have inconsistent formats, although they both purport to be "Nightwish's Official Website". Turns out they're completely different domains. All the references need to be rechecked.  Done See below.
  • Sorry, no; not done.
  • Ref 1 and similar: This isn't right: publisher=Nightwish's Official Website. The work is Nightwish.com, and the publisher is either Nightwish itself, or Nightwish.com, in the latter case of which you wouldn't duplicate the work, you'd just leave it out. "Nightwish's Official Website" is your made-up description of the site.  Done now i'm using work=Nighwish.com
  • Ref 2 and similar: You haven't mentioned the Web site (Allmusic.com), only the publisher (Rovi Corporation). I suggest you fill in the site as work=Allmusic.  Done i'm using it.
  • Refs 12, 13, 14 and similar: Again, you haven't identified the site, e.g. austriancharts.at, finnishcharts.com, lescharts.com. Also, eMedia Jungen should not be mentioned as publishers; they're only the Web designers. Mostly the publisher for these sites is Hung Medien. The two exceptions are their Belgian sites (not used here) and the NL site. The NL site's publisher should be publisher=Hung Medien / hitparade.ch, which is close to what you have now in Ref 18.  Done now i'm using, for example, work="austriancharts.at, and i repared the problems about the publishers.
  • Many, manyMOST of the refs: You have invented a title for these things rather than use the <title> shown in the top edge of your browser or the actual top-level heading on the referenced page.  Done now i'm using different links with a simple title, check it out.
  • The publisher for Ref 26 is not "Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft", but "IFPI Austria". If you want, you can call it "IFPI Austria - Verband der Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft", based on the text at page bottom, although that's rather long and isn't usually done, AFAIK.  Done i'm using IFPI Austria - Verband der Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft.
Still needs a lot of work. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 15:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I don't think this list is close to ready yet. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • New issues:
  • Delink dates in infobox.  Done No more links wikilinks in dates
  • No sources for sales of Once or Dark Passion Play in lede or elsewhere.  Done you can verify the sales of "Once" on ref 1, and i erased the informations about "Dark Passion Play" since i coldn't get any reliable source for it.
  • Then you'd ordinarily need to tell the reader that in this article by placing a reflink after the sales mention. If the sales were mentioned below (in a table, outside the lede) with a ref, we wouldn't need to footnote the mention in the lede, but it doesn't appear anywhere else but the lede. However, if the only source for sales is the artist's website itself, then I'm afraid you'll have to remove it. Artists and record labels are notoriously unreliable as sources for sales figures. Find a better source or remove the "one million copies". — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The phrase "took the band to release" needs changing, but that entire sentence doesn't make sense anyway.  Done erased
  • 3rd graph in lede: No commas needed around "Anette Olzon". Also remove the link.  Done repared
  • 3rd graph in lede: Why "new album" and "new live album"? That last sentence doesn't make sense anyway and the word "containing" is misspelled.  Done repared
  • Last graph in lede: "The seventh studio album, titled Imaginaerum," doesn't need "titled".  Done repared
  • Last graph in lede: Start a new sentence after the date (period instead of semicolon).  Done i added a few words.
  • The sentences in general are too long, as they try to pack in too much info all at once, and the meaning gets murkier and finally lost. Especially as a non-native speaker, you should aim for shorter sentences.  Done i made some new sentences.
  • Studio albums table: Certs should be shown in alpha order by country, same as the order of the chart peak countries.  Done i put FIN in front but i left the rest as they were before.
  • Why are Demo albums after the Singles? Would an Albums heading make sense, with the other current album headings below that?  Done i erased the demos section since it's unnecessary.
  • I've never seen lengths shown for music videos in an FL discography, and I'm not sure they're useful or desirable. Worse, it looks like they are unsourced WP:OR. If you keep them, though, how about right aligning the timings?  Done erased
That's all for the moment; will keep looking. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I kept looking, as promised, and here are some more new items:
  • Get that Polish cert out of Studio albums, because we don't show any Polish charts. Remove France cert from Live albums for same reason.
  • "Audio DVD" appears to always follow another item, so "Audio" should be lowercase.
  • Digital download should link to Music download, not Download.
Regards, — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, sorry for that.Rodrigo18 (talk) 09:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think i understood what you said about the refs on charts, and i've made some modifications about the publishers and dates; and also i couldn't get reliable sources about the director for some videos, so i just wrote "Unknown". Is it ok now?Rodrigo18 (talk) 11:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments
  • Although Nightwis debut album Angels Fall First, in 1997,[2] they did not achieve worldwide fame until the release of the albums Oceanborn, Wishmaster and Century Child, which were released in 1998, 2000 and 2002 respectively. – "h" missing in "Nightwis"; why do you link years?  Done no more links for dates since it's not usual in discographies
  • Do not use curvy apostrophes, eg “Sleeping Sun”, per MOS:PUNCT.  Done i added "these apostrophes"
  • In May 2007, former Alyson Avenue frontwoman, Anette Olzon, was revealed as Turunen’s replacement,[7] and in the autumn, the band released a new album, Dark Passion Play, which has sold almost two million copies, with their big single, "Amaranth", being released one month before.[1] – a long, multi-clause sentence. What about splitting it? For example put a period after "replacement" and begin the next sentence with "In the autumn".  Done i made new sentences
  • What happened with the tables? Why are they so tight?--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • TABLES:

I made some changes on the tables based on Gaga's featured discography, and it seems to be good since all the tables are equally big, and also based these changes on the suggestions by JohnFromPinckney. Rodrigo18 (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The differences between this disco and your example are huge; I have no idea why you chose a relative different discography with relative different tables. For example, the "Album details" column
is
very
tiny,
so
that
one,two,three
words
fit
in
one
line. It is minimum twice as big as on Lady Gaga discography.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 10:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments I increased the columns. Not a big issue, but I would like to see the certifications alphabetically. Also where is "MCD" linked? Name the people on the infobox picture. In references, why don't you link "Hungarian" but "Polish"? In ref 24 add a space ahead the n-dash. In refs 3,4,5,12,25,26,29,35 use spaced n-dashes.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 16:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)  Done thank you for the tables. Rodrigo18 (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did the rest--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Some thoughts:

  • Why so many italics in the references? Yeah, italicise books, magazines, newspapers, journals and such, but websites needn't be
  • "Nightwish's Official Website" What's with the caps?
  • I'm not keen on the "Unknown" director. It's not "unknown", in the same way it is "unknown" when Boudica was born, it's just that we don't know. Someone somewhere will know...
  • "former vocalist Tarja Turunen" She's no longer a vocalist? She wasn't a vocalist when the band formed?
  • "Nightwish's current line-up has five members although Turunen has been replaced by Anette Olzon and the original bassist, Sami Vänskä, has been replaced by Marco Hietala, who also took over the male vocalist part." Clumsy
  • "Nightwish was popular in Finland since 1997" has been
  • "Once Upon a Tour" Why are you italicising tour names?
  • "when they played their last concert with Turunen on vocals and also when the End of an Era DVD was recorded." More clumsy phrasing
  • "is scheduled to be released on November 11, 2001" How out of date is that?
  • I'm not sure details of the tours is all that important. This is a discography- we're concerned with releases from the band

I'm opposing at this time on the bad writing and the "unknown" directors. The heavy reliance on primary sources also makes me pause. K-Ci & JoJo discography, nominated further up this page, is a far stronger example of a discography article, and covers a similar number of releases. J Milburn (talk) 11:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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