Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/National symbols of India/archive3

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]

National symbols of India

Nominator(s): Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC) and The Herald (Benison) (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is my first featured list nomination and I am nominating this post improving the article. This is a list of the national symbols of India. Thanks! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dajasj

Thanks for working on the list and nominating it! Some first thoughts:

Have a look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial. Let me know if you have any questions!
"Adopted" column is not really sortable (while other columns have the option to sort but are not really meant to be sorted)
Random Capital letter in "The first two verses of the song were adopted as the National Song of India On 24 January 1950 by the Constituent Assembly of India."
Try to minimise the text in the Notes column. Focus on what is relevant for it as national symbol. I think it is also good for accessibility if you don't change font size.
I'm missing context for what is up with Hockey. Dajasj (talk) 16:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and comments. I have addressed the comments (MOS, sorting, caps and font size) except the notes part, which I will work on trimming it to keep it relevant.

For the last point, Hockey is listed as a national game in government websites, text books etc. but as per an official note, there is no declared national game. Not sure whether to omit this altogether or keep it with mentioning the same in comments. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kavyansh

I appreciate you nominating the list and I respect the efforts that must have been made to improve the list to this extent. That being said, I have a few fundamental issues with this nomination. The official Nation Portal of India lists only these 8 national symbols. Our list has 21 official symbols. Even if me make an exception for the "official name", the other alleged national symbols are being cited by an archived version of this site. It is a site hosted by "International Institute of Health and Hygiene,New Delhi" and sponsored by "Ministry of Environment, Forest & Climate Change Govt of India". Does that make it an official site of the Government of India (as claimed in the citation)? For the other alleged national symbols, our article cites various news articles like TOI or HT. While these news articles do confirm the claim, wouldn't it be much better to cite an official source? For example, rather than this news article, why not directly cite this official declaration. But that leads me to the next question: if there are actual official symbols not specified in the Nation Portal of India website, what steps have we taken to ensure that the list is comprehensive? It is claimed by a HT article that Ganga is the national river of India. I am not able to find an official reliable source for it! The closest I can find is this audit report from the CAG, which again isn't an official declaration. So what criteria are we exactly using to determine which symbol gets to be in this list and which doesn't? How exactly are we justifying keeping Hockey as the National game? – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kavyansh.Singh Thanks for the comments. I understand that your question broadly focuses on the comprehensiveness of the symbols and the verifiability of the same.

As there is no clear definition of what constitutes a official/national symbol (either officially or as an agreed consensus in WP), I am afraid that the list can neither be comprehensive nor be exhaustive. The article covers symbols that are generally regarded as official/national symbols as per various given sources. For the question of whether these 21 symbols are verifiable as official, let us classify into three categories for the discussion at hand.

a. Fifteen symbols with official sources:

Eleven symbols, which are quoted as such directly in the official source: Official name and the nine symbols (motto is part of the emblem, described in detail in the same site) listed here officially are clear. National days are mentioned in the same official site here. These are fairly straightforward.
Four symbols, where official press releases available. These have official sources, so verifiability should not be a concern. (Aquatic Animal: Official source by the Ministry of Environment here, Heritage animal: Official press release by the Ministry of Environment here, River: Apart from news sources, official press release from PMO here and official website of NMCG, Ministry of Jal Shakti also states so here, Microbe: Official press release by the Ministry of Environment here)

b. Four symbols, where Government affiliated sources and other citations are available. As there are multiple government affiliated sources and independent sources backing the same information, they are verifiable plus there are no sources stating anything to the contrary.

Pledge: Apart from the general news sources, it is mentioned as such in Government sources (From Ministry of Education here, other here) and in a discussion in Parliament as a pledge (here).
Tree and Fruit: These are quoted here in a site maintained by ENVIS, a government organization functioning under the Ministry of Environment. While not officially the Government website, it is affiliated to the Government. There are multiple other government affiliated sources/court mentions (For fruit: here, here, here and for tree: here, here, here, here) + independent news sources.
Reptile: Apart from the general news sources, it is mentioned as such in Government exams(here), question papers (here), text books (here) and third party sources (here)

c. Two symbols, with contradictory sources.

Flower: ENVIS source here and other government affiliated source here + was part of the official symbols here. It was not mentioned as a national flower in an RTI query in 2017 and in Parliament in 2019 (here), but was part of the official website till 2021, referenced as such in official statements in 2019 (here) and by ministers in 2022 (here, here)
Game: As I had mentioned in the previous revert, I am not sure whether to keep hockey or not. An RTI reply in 2012 said that officially there is no national game here and it was reiterated in 2020 here. While the ENVIS source still lists it here.

For both the above cases, can remove/keep with a note based on consensus here.

I have tried to address the points raised in your queries. Please do let me know if you have further comments/clarification on the same. Thanks again! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 10:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delayed response. I understand that it is wrong to hold our editors accountable for information that is simply not available or unclear, but I am still not entirely convinced. In the lead of the list (which I believe needs to be more elaborate), we claim, "The Government of India has designated official national symbols that represent the Republic of India." However, the instances here unfortunately show that there are symbols that are not officially designated. As things stand, if the list can neither be comprehensive nor exhaustive, then we need to set clear criteria for what is to be included and what is not. In my opinion, that criteria should be based on what reliable official sources say. Alternatively, given the lack of available information, we can set the criteria based on the opinions of the major contributors to this list or through a talk page discussion (RfC if required). I won't oppose the nomination merely for this reason, but in my opinion, government exam question papers, privately published grade 6 textbooks, and even sites affiliated with the government aren't entirely reliable for such extraordinary claims. As a side note, I have filled a RTI application regarding this awaiting response from the Ministry of Home Affairs. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kavyansh.Singh I do agree with your point on the criteria and I am open to take it to a discussion as there seems to be no precedent or agreement on what is consisted as a national symbol (apart from these, there are symbols which are termed as national announced by private organizations as well!). If your RTI gets a revert, nothing like it as it will probably help clarify things from the official perspective. Then the question is whether we split into two sections or keep only the official symbols recognised. Thanks! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 13:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)

Tables need captions, which allow screen reader software to jump straight to named tables without having to read out all of the text before it each time. Visual captions can be added by putting |+ caption_text as the first line of the table code; if that caption would duplicate a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-only by putting |+ {{sronly|caption_text}} instead.
Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. I don't return to these reviews until the nomination is ready to close, so ping me if you have any questions. This is not a full review, and does not result in a support vote. --Pres N 13:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN Thanks for the comment. Have addressed the same! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 13:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, this nomination has been open now for over 2 months without any support votes. As such, I'm going to close it down. Feel free to renominate whenever, but consider asking other editors or relevant wikiprojects to review the list if you do so that it can get more attention. --Pres N 21:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.