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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by Crisco 1492 13:13, 14 October 2014 [1].

List of municipalities in Yukon

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List of municipalities in Yukon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominators: Mattximus (talk) and Hwy43 (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC) [reply]

We are endeavouring to bring the list of municipalities for every province and territory of Canada to featured status. We have created a standardized format and so far promoted List of municipalities in Manitoba, List of municipalities in Saskatchewan, List of municipalities in Ontario, List of municipalities in Alberta and List of municipalities in the Northwest Territories. We have also taken suggestions from the previous 5 nominations into account. We are hoping to eventually reach featured topic when all lists have been promoted. Our project is currently 5/13 complete, hoping to make it 6 with this very short nomination. Thank you for your input! Mattximus (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • While it could be reworded, I think it is best as a table. This will allow a complete featured topic with the list from all provinces and territories (and not all provinces and territories, except for Yukon). Also having the table gives readers an easy way to sort and compare all the values in each column, which would be lost if it were converted to text. It also allows comparisons between provinces and territories as they all share a standardized format. I'm not sure what you mean by "what is below municipalities". It is the lowest administrative division of the territory, so nothing is below. Mattximus (talk) 12:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inserting late answer: In Yukon, a "local advisory area" (e.g. hamlet) is the administrative division below a municipality. maclean (talk) 21:36, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then how about a map like File:Manitoba_municipalities.png? Nergaal (talk) 13:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The map you see on the right is actually that. The map shows all of the municipalities. It could not look different. There is not much up there. Mattximus (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the borders. Nergaal (talk) 15:57, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yep I understood. Those are the borders, they are so small that they are within the circles that are for towns and cities. There are no large land areas under municipal control like other provinces. Mattximus (talk) 16:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. When comprising a mere 0.2% of the territory's land mass, using areas rather than points will be ineffective. The map in question is consistent with maps for urban municipalities in other provinces and territories (i.e., File:Manitoba urban municipalities.png, File:Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities.png, File:Alberta's Urban Municipalities.png, File:Northwest Territories municipalities.png, and File:Nunavut municipalities.png). Hwy43 (talk) 19:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That answers my question then. What is there in the remaining 99 percent? Nergaal (talk) 06:05, 2 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nergaal, pardon the late reply. Mattximus is on holidays and I forgot to monitor this more closely in his absence.
Unorganized Yukon covers 98% of the territory. The remaining 1% comprises a couple other much smaller unorganized areas and numerous small communities that are not recognized as municipalities. Hwy43 (talk) 04:38, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, now I understand what is happening. I believe then that this is a wp:FORK issue since List of communities in Yukon would be a perfectly suitable FL, which would not have any problems in terms of length. When it will come to FTing this, you can use the communities list instead of a municipalities (probably for all territories). Nergaal (talk) 07:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See the speedy keep outcome at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of communities in British Columbia. "Municipalities" are incorporated communities. "Communities" are inclusive of both incorporated and unincorporated communities. Having unincorporated communities in Yukon's FL would be inconsistent with the other provinces and territories (Northwest Territories passed) within the topic, and outside the scope of {{Canada topic|List of municipalities in}}.
Further, info on various unincorporated community types is less readily available than incorporated municipality types. Sections on the different unincorporated community types will not reach the same standard as the municipality type sections in this candidate, and there would be content gaps within the table (or equivalent tables). Essentially, the {{Canada topic|List of communities in}} topic does not lend itself to be FL-worthy.
As the inclusion parameters between the "municipalities" and "communities" topics are sufficiently different, and per WP:NOTPAPER, I respectfully disagree this is a WP:CONTENTFORK issue (which I believe you were intending rather than WP:FORK). Hwy43 (talk) 09:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, this particular FLC should be 100% independent of what a topic should look like or it should be. That is a completely separate discussion at FTC. From my long experience there, I have seen quite a few topics where the overlap of the article with the topic is only part of that article. Secondly, hypothetically, if List of communities in Yukon would be a FL, what would it not contain that this list does now? I can't see anything that would not be 100% included there. Furthermore, the scope of that article is significantly smaller than the municipalities of states like Quebec or Ontario, so it would require a major amount of work. And the difference with the AfD is that that list is much more massive than for YK, so forking it into a separate municipalities list is perfectly ok. Nergaal (talk) 11:32, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just look at an acceptable fork of an FL at List of Academy Award-winning foreign-language films. Because of the size of a particular part of the list, that was almost completely taken out so I anticipate a similar pattern for the BC communities list. An example of unacceptable cfork is List of universities in Canada which used to be split in some 6 separate mini-FLs. All those were removed and merged into the reasonably-sized main article. The main article in this case is List of communities in Yukon. Nergaal (talk) 11:40, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I'm on vacation for the next few days but I'm having trouble understanding your argument. Are you saying that the article which has a completely different inclusion criteria, but is a set that contains the set of the article we are nominating, should be the only one of the two permitted to allowed to reach featured status, despite the consensus mentioned above (which was debated twice, both times resulting in the agreement to keep both lists, and the policy WP:NOTPAPER. What you are arguing is an arbitrary level which includes subsets that are also arbitrary. I'll explain. This set that is nominated, contains sets of all cities in Yukon, and all towns and villages in Yukon. What you want to nominate is a list which contains all communities, cities, and towns and villages. But why stop there? Why not all settlements in Yukon and communities and cities and towns and villages? Why not all communities in all three territories? Why not all communities in Canada? Of course I'm exaggerating but I'm trying to make a point. The cut off you propose is arbitrary, but the one we submit is based on a simple fact: groups of people defined by law to have local government. A very simple inclusion criteria that is not arbitrary. One used in all other provinces and territories that are featured. So adding in another set (communities not included here already) does not make sense. That list exists because of policies mentioned above, but should not be considered as influencing this submission. Mattximus (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per 3.b. Those consensuses were for much longer articles. The article here is not even 10 items long and can very, very, very, very, very easily be included into the communities one. Nergaal (talk) 19:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm wondering if you read my reply. You have given us a catch 22. If we submit what you propose, we run afoul of 3.a. Specifically "It comprehensively covers the defined scope". Municipalities are a defined entity with specific inclusion criteria (legally based). Adding something that is not defined (a community or settlement, what ever those are) arbitrarily, makes the list quite poor. In fact, adding those extras will decrease the quality of the list since they don't have much data on them (they are not matched well to statistics). In some cases they are literally some families in a small area. Why take a well defined list, and add ill-defined and arbitrary items? This would also run afoul of FLC guideline 2. since we would not have defined "inclusion criteria". Can you see the catch 22? Mattximus (talk) 16:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"List of X" will always have X a defined scope. My point is that having X contain 3 items does not make "List of X" deemed as FL quality. Instead, if "List of Y" contains all X and several more other things, the list is still well defined by Y and is enough of a list to pass FL? There are artists with a single published album, should we make FL discographies for those artists? Or should the list be included as a paragraph in the main topic? Here that is not necessary, since Y is still large enough to not be included into the Yukon main article. Nergaal (talk) 15:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is no suggestion here that a list for a single item should be eligible for FL-designation. There are nineeight items (municipalities) in this list. A cursory review of Wikipedia:Featured lists#Places reveals there are three FLs of counties by American state with less than nine, and a fourth with ten. Presumably there are numerous FLs in other topic areas with nine or less entries. Wikipedia:Featured lists#Settlements also reveals there isn't a single "List of communities in X" FL to date. In my opinion, this is because of what both Mattximus and I have stated previously. List of communities in Yukon does not lend itself to become a FL. Hwy43 (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Which ones are <10 items long? Why arent the comminities lending themselves to a FL? It has 66 items, and not all of them need to be featured at a level that municipalities would (i.e. some of them only need a name and a ref and would be enough). Nergaal (talk) 06:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Connecticut, Hawaii and Rhone Island. New Hampshire is at 10. A bulleted list of 58 communities (doubt List of communities in Yukon is complete or accurate) following the comprehensive table of municipalities would be an embarrassing joke in my opinion. Hwy43 (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think one of them is List of counties in Rhode Island which was promoted in 2007, way before the criteria were seriously upgraded around 2009. That list could possibly be included into List of municipalities in Rhode Island but there there is a slightly larger difference between a county and a municipality, than between a municipality and a commune. I will nominate it when the current FLRC I started will be over. Nergaal (talk) 06:51, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
List of municipalities in Ontario has upper-tier municipalities (i.e., equivalents of US counties) embedded within it. Hwy43 (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I may put it another way. Nergaal, it's not true that "List of X" will have a defined scope. What if an item on the list is ill defined? Using your example, the artist would have 8 albums in their discography, but made a few recordings at home that were never published. Should those be included in discography? Of course not, they are not defined as albums. It is the same thing here. Specifically, in this case the issue would be whatever a settlement or community is (it has no clear definition, unlike the municipalities on this list). Unless your primary concern the number of items on the list, and not the inclusion criteria? If so, what is the exact minimum number? Mattximus (talk) 23:14, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My primary concern is not the number, but the size. Currently this looks more like a joke than an actual FL. There are artists with less than 10 albums, but those have 10+ singles and several other items. That way those lists don't need to be included as part of a larger article. Let's try an extreme example: what is this list covering that is NOT already in Yukon#Municipalities by population? Nergaal (talk) 06:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is the minimum size threshold and what are the units? If not number of entries, is it number of words? Bytes? I don't see anything explicit regarding length or size at WP:FLCR or WP:SAL. Without, size/length is subjective. Only thing I see is "The length and/or topic" under 3.b., in which "and/or" is key. This FLC doesn't duplicate any content except for the bulleted eight municipality entries at List of communities in Yukon, which could be replaced by transcluding the table from this FLC as the main "municipality" article to there.
I don't see this FLC as a joke. I see that it is a list that consistently aligns with all the other Canadian municipality FLs, but it is a unique case where there are the fewest here than meet the inclusion criteria compared to the others.
Not sure your extreme example works. Yukon#Municipalities by population is a transclusion of the table from this FLC.
BTW, I really appreciate your patience and walking through your concerns in detail with us. It is a collaborative and informative exercise. Hwy43 (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try this again: could you please do me a favor and spend only 1h on the communities article and see where you can bring it? Nergaal (talk) 18:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please address my comment above. It's like you are asking someone who made a discography list which consists of 8 albums to add a bunch of random recordings that are not albums to the list. Maybe there were live performances one time back in 1983. Should that performance be added to the discography list? The community list has former trading posts, ghost towns, mining camps, first nation communities. None of these have areas, populations, dates... they simply are completely different than municipalities. Much like a live performance is different than discography but both fall under "music by artist X". If your concern is the size, please state an exact acceptable size of the list, otherwise it's just arbitrary. Thank you for your input.Mattximus (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see you are not willing to work with me here. Check the communities list now, and please tell me what is TMI in that article as of now? Nergaal (talk) 19:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you are not addressing my comments. The communities list is a random assortment of different things. It has no defined scope running afoul of 3.a. I could put "bob's farm" on that list and there is no way to determine if it should or shouldn't be there. There is no definition for what a community is, that's why it can't be a featured list. It's completely arbitrary. It's like having an article "music by artist X" and including some albums, some performances, some tapes made at home, some covers of the band, instruments used by the band... The municipalities takes the defined subset and includes only items that meet this definition, just like we've done for every other province and territory including List of municipalities in the Northwest Territories which is *very* similar. Mattximus (talk) 21:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved Nergaal's edits to User:Hwy43/List of communities in Yukon/sandbox for viewing purposes as the copied lead from this article did not work at List of communities in Yukon. I have however transcluded the table from here to there just like it is transcluded to Yukon#Municipalities by population. Hwy43 (talk) 07:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I am giving up trying to help you when you go ahead and even revert my good faith edits. Nergaal (talk) 07:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't take the revert personally. It has to be obvious that the lead you copied and pasted was not applicable to that article. As for the other content, we already have transclusion available, so why not use it? Hwy43 (talk) 07:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you can figure out how to transclude both the "Cities" and "Towns" sections as well as and the list of municipalities to List of communities in Yukon yet only transclude the list to Yukon#Municipalities by population without the two sections, please show me. I've experimented in my sandbox on other things and have had little luck. Hwy43 (talk) 07:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) How is List of communities in Yukon not suitable for FL? Well...

  • What are the definitions of “hamlet” and “settlement” and what are the inclusion criteria of each?
  • Of the 17 “Ghost towns and First Nations communities”, which are ghost towns and which are First Nation communities?
  • What makes a community a ghost town?
  • What makes a community a First Nation community? First Nation communities in Canada are typically Indian reserves and Indian settlements. Is there really a third type of First Nation community? If so, what is the proper designation that applies to such communities?
  • What is “Other” communities and how can we be sure this is complete? Couldn't they also fall under "Small Yukon places"?
  • Speaking of, what are the differences between a “place” and other types of unincorporated communities (i.e., “hamlets”, “communities”)?
  • Also “Small” is subjective. What makes a place “small” in Yukon, and why aren't the four “Other” entries suitable for inclusion in the “Small Yukon places” section?
  • Likewise, couldn't the “Ghost towns and First Nations communities” entries also be listed under the same? What about the “hamlets” and “settlements”?
  • The only pre-existing reference is Robert G. Woodall, The Postal History of Yukon Territory Canada, Lawrence, MA, Quarterman, Revised edition, ©1976, ISBN 0-88000-086-4, but due to the lack of inline citations, it is unclear what content the source actually verifies. Surely it doesn't verify all content in the article (excluding the "Municipalities" section).
  • Also, a source from 1976 is terribly dated. So many things may have changed in the past 38 years. For example, we know from List of municipalities in Yukon that all “villages” became “towns” in 2001.
  • How do we know if all entries in List of communities in Yukon truly are communities? Some of them could simply be family-owned gas station/restaurant/hotel developments on the Alaska Highway just like Twin Lakes, Alberta on the Mackenzie Highway? I've stopped there many times, and I would argue these places are not communities.

I could go on, but I think I've gone beyond overkill here. The points are there is not much information available to answer these questions and to assure the list is complete, and it is unclear where communities end and other places unsuitable for inclusion begin. Surely not every rail siding and roadside service station is a community. The article is riddled with WP:OR of which I am confident not all content could be verified by reliable sources. List of municipalities in Yukon on the other hand... Hwy43 (talk) 07:46, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. A good list. A few quibbles.

  • "The Municipal Act stipulates governance of these municipalities." This seems to me almost meaningless. Done
  • "at the request of the Minister of Community Services" I would specify Yukon Minister (assuming it is). Done
  • "Whitehorse, which is the largest among the three cities" I would prefer largest of the three. Done
  • "Of the remaining 99.8%, Unorganized Yukon accounts for 98.1% of the territory's land mass". What is the other 1.7%??  Done Dudley Miles (talk) 12:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review, and good catch on those numbers! I'm still figuring out where the discrepancy lies... Mattximus (talk) 20:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Found it! I hope this change clears up the confusion. Mattximus (talk) 01:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought reporting the percentages of the two next largest areas was a bit too much, so I changed the note. Hope that is okay. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 06:08, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I think the "stipulates governance" sentence arose out of one of the five earlier FLCs and was carried forward. I have no issue with its removal however. Hwy43 (talk) 06:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your review and support, Dudley Miles! Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This lists the criteria for becoming a municipality but skips the purpose: what it means for a community to become a municipality. Likewise, is there any difference between a "City" and a "Town", like additional responsibility, more regulatory authority, administrative requirements like a larger council?
    • Thanks for the suggestion. According to the legislation "The purposes of a local government include (a) providing within its jurisdiction good government for its community; and (b) providing within its jurisdiction services, facilities, or things that a local government considers necessary or desirable for all or part of its community. S.Y. 1998, c.19, s.3". It seems a bit tautological but I'm more than happy to include this if you think it adds. Specific services (fire, roads, etc.) are not prescribed by the legislation as far as I can tell. Mattximus (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I took the liberty of adding an abridged version to the lead. I think this should address your concern.  Done
        • Maclean25, main differences I am aware of are the different population thresholds to incorporate and the minimum size of councils. I have not previously found any evidence that city status carries additional responsibilities or more regulatory authority than town status. Hwy43 (talk) 07:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, "A proposal to incorporate a community as a town can be initiated under the Municipal Act at the request of the Minister of Community Services, a municipal council..." - how can there be a municipal council if the community is not incorporated? the "municipal council" part only applies for altering municipal boundaries or dissolution. maclean (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good catch. I fixed it based upon the same act. It turns out that the council is there for dissolution or changes to boundries. I added both cases to reflect that.  Done
      • Maclean25, a municipal council can conceivably request its municipality become a town. Though rare, a city could voluntarily request to change its status to that of a town, just as three towns in Alberta changed from town to village status. In Yukon, Dawson once held city status but now holds town status. It is unknown if this was done voluntarily by its municipal council or was imposed by the territorial government due to population decline. Given this, I have removed the additions regarding dissolution and boundary adjustments. Hwy43 (talk) 07:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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