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List of top-division football clubs in UEFA countries

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(Partial self-nom) A list that is comprehensive in terms of the top-division clubs and contains links to the national club lists. Conscious 13:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Object - it looks ugly. There should be info about each club, not just a plain ugly list. Pics could be nice, but I know very well that logos are fair use and fair use does not allow to use images for decorations. Also there is a ton of red links (well, that is not the major point of my objection). Renata 22:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment, why should there be info about each club (how much info on each entry do you get out of List of Oklahoma birds or List of mathematics lists)? And what kind of info? How does it look ugly, and what should be made to make it look not ugly? I don't think your objection "provides a specific rationale that can be addressed". -- Elisson • Talk 02:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I'm with Elisson. Adding club info would make it unwieldy and unusable. And that's not the purpose of a list in any case. A well-made list should be clean and easy to use and quickly lead you to where you want to be - where the info is! Wiggy! 02:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok, there is this very cute class=wikitable; the two mentioned lists have at least a couple of sentences about each heading, a couple of pics, and just a couple of red links. Additional info, like who's the champion? What city is it from? Founding date? Some statistics, how well they did on the championship (your reference has that). I know it's a lot of work and most likely info is not readily available, but you have to earn featured status. Also, links are not formatted in a consistent manner. Some have FC, some F.C. I know that articles are named very differently and that's none of your fault, but there is link piping for that. Also, since when Kazakhstan is in Europe? If you list UEFA clubs, indicate so in the title. Also, is there any reason why Wales & England get a separate entry? Also, just take a look at how your references are formatted... Renata 07:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Additional info is found on the club page. There is no need to clutter the list with info that can be found elsewhere. Links are formatted in the form the club and country uses the name. That is not a reason to object. Or do you want that clubs that aren't even using FC or F.C. should be listed as such? About Kazakhstan and UEFA, try reading the first paragraph, saying Countries that are not in Europe but are members of UEFA are also listed in this article.. Why should England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland not have separate entries? They have their own FA, their own league and their own national team. -- Elisson • Talk 11:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • What if there is no club page? Or it just says, "Abc is a soccer club in xyz country"? So the info can't be found elsewhere. My strong belief is that lists that just list thing are not really useful. Lists should have more info on each entry. This info is presented in a consistent manner througout and saves a lot of clicks to hundreds of sub-pages just to find some trivial info.
          • No, of course, I don't want FC when there is no FC. I want consistency. Some clubs seem to be named randomly. For example, Spain clubs are pipped not to show any CF, FC, etc. Why? My point, decide what to do with those FC's, CF's and follow it throughout. Renata 20:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The title "List of football clubs in UEFA countries" would be inaccurate, as autonomous leagues such as the Isle of Man are not affiliated to UEFA. For footballing purposes, Kazakhstan and Israel are considered part of Europe. Oldelpaso 12:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: My main concern is the actual the usefulness of the list. A lot of them gives the impression to be simply transclusions of the individual lists for each country (this is especially true for the smaller countries). The title of the article is also misleading: it doesn't list all football clubs in Europe, just the main league ones. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 12:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • (usefulness) The list provides some kind of information that cannot be found elsewhere on Wikipedia. This is especially true for the countries where we have a few redlinks and no article on the national league. You may not know there is such and such club unless you see a redlink in this list. Moreover, the list complements subcategories of Category:Football (soccer) clubs, showing all clubs in one page. That's why I think the list is useful.
  • (top-flight clubs) It's unreasonable to try to list all clubs in one page (the list is long as it is now). But the most significant clubs are listed, and there are links to the national sublists, so the list probably deserves to retain is current proud name.
    • The title still doesn't reflect the actual subject of the list. "List of main-league football clubs in Europe" is more accurate, since what you're actually doing here is only presenting a subset of the actual universe. "List of football clubs in Europe" presumably includes every football club in Europe that deserves an article according to Wikipedia guidelines of notability. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 22:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • (choice of countries) Ellison's words seconded. It'd be incorrect to mention UEFA, because there's Isle of Man. (Not everyone will even know what UEFA is.) It's reasonable to include non-European UEFA countries because they are a part of "Football Europe". That's mentioned in the lead. And UK is four different countries in terms of football, that's historical.
    • You have to make clear which one of the several definitions of Europe you're using, as well as any other exceptions or additions and their justifications. UEFA membership and geopolitical criteria are perfectly fine, but the inclusion criteria have to be made clear to the reader. Stating the obvious also helps a lot towards reducing potential confusion: if the four nations within the UK are separate in terms of soccer, simply mention (and source!) that fact where appropriate. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 22:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • So why not to explain that UK is really 4 countries in respect to soccer (I didn't know that). But what about Isle of Man and Faroes? What's the story there? They are not independent countries and are not part of UEFA. Or Faroe islands is? And why Monaco is not included? I have no idea personally and I see no comments anywhere and I got sincerely confussed. Please clearly define your inclusion criteria. And also, there are more countries that are not in Europe and are in the list than just Israel and Kazakhstan. Renata 20:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, there are other territories like Isle of Man, e.g. Gibraltar, Guernsey, Jan Mayen, Jersey, etc. What's up with those? Renata 20:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ugliness) Changing bulleted lists to class=wikitable tables would be fairly trivial, the question is, would it suffice, or is more information on clubs necessary? (See also my considerations on usefulness above.) Conscious 15:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • In part, ugliness was addressed by adding flag icons (nice touch). And I am a strong believer in more info = more useful (of course, there must be a balnce). Renata 20:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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