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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Turkish football champions

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List of Turkish football champions (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Akocsg (talk) 17:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This valuable list contains information about the Turkish football championships which are not covered appropriately the way they should and provides useful information and data, especially about the former championships (before 1957). What makes this list article especially interesting and engaging is the fact that the Turkish Football Federation negates and ignores the era before 1957, even though both former championships were the official competitions of the very same federation!

Given their unique situation and the general quality of the article, I think that this article deserves to be a Featured List. I have tried my best to meet all the criteria and I believe that the article is in an appropriate state. It is a personal concern for me that this list gains FL status, and I will genuinely try my best to improve it even further if necessary. I offer my thanks to all who have the time to comment on the list, and I promise that I'll get to each comment as soon as I can. Kind regards, Akocsg (talk) 17:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Query - what is sourcing the top goalscorers? I can't see any references either against individual rows or against the column headings as you have done with the champions............ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: Done. Good point, I totally forgot about them. Thank you for reminding, they are in the article now. I didn't really understand what you mean by the individual rows and column headings though. Could you specify? If you mean the championship titles, there are sources such as RSSSF and the Turkish FA's own magazine (TamSaha), for instance. Akocsg (talk) 19:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All I meant was that the goalscorers could have been sourced either individually against each row or (if there was one source that listed them all) against the column header (as you did with the champions). When I commented, neither was present. Now you have put a source against the column header so all is good......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:42, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: Oh, now I see. Thanks. Akocsg (talk) 18:58, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Kosack (talk) 19:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Images need WP:ALT text.
  • Remove the Turkey flag from the infobox per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG.
  • Turkey is linked in the infobox and the opening sentence. WP:OVERLINK advises against linking major geographic locations.
  • "Englishmen brought the game with them while living in Thessaloniki.", what's the source for this?
  • Is there a reason the earlier seasons are not counted by the TFF?
  • The star rating system paragraph is unsourced or at least seems that way.
  • I would say to use the full name of the Rsssf in references, Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation, to keep consistency as all other organisations are done that way apart from the Rsssf.

Just a very quick read through, I may add more if I get the chance. Kosack (talk) 06:41, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: All done I think. The images have a bit more text now, I don't know what else I could add. Removed the flag and internal link from the infobox. Provided a source for the part about the Englishmen (it was already there though, just at another spot). Provided a source for the star rating. The link to RSSSF uses the full name now. About the Turkish FA not counting the earler ones, well that's a very good question. Until today, no official answer or motive was given for this denial. Even though both former championships are their own official competitions. In the article about the Turkish Football Federation you can read more about that topic. Thank you for your input. Akocsg (talk) 18:58, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ALT text is not the caption that is displayed with the image, it is an accessibility aid for people who may not view images in the same way as other users. It is added using

Support - issues addressed, no further concerns. Kosack (talk) 19:00, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Very good and informative article. I didn't notice anything else apart from the points addressed above. Baki.d (talk) 10:42, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 21:10, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • There are two stubby one-sentence paragraphs in the lead. Putting all three of them into one larger paragraph seems like the easiest solution, as the size would be just about right.
  • What is meant to be sourcing the runners-up and third place columns in the tables? If it's the same sources as for the winners, they should be added to those columns as well.
  • For the blank third place cells in 1957–58 and 1959, and for the blank cells in the all-time tables consider adding a dash of some kind. That would look nicer than the blank space that is currently there.
  • All-time performance (1924–): The bolding here is discouraged by Manual of Style guidelines, which say not to use bolding for emphasis. Italics are permitted, if you want to use that as a substitute.
  • Minor style note: The hyphens in the titles of references 2, 4, 8, and 15, along with the ones in the title of the Yuce book and the first external link, should be converted into en dashes instead. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:36, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Giants2008: All done. Although I don't really agree with not using bolding. See for example the List of English football champions, List of Danish football champions, and List of French football champions. All three are Featured Lists and use bolding. But I still removed them from the Turkish list. Akocsg (talk) 18:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The third-place columns still don't have a source. The rest of the comments have been resolved, so I'm just waiting on this one point before offering my support. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Giants2008: Done. Thank you for your input. Akocsg (talk) 16:34, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies for not checking back. Here's some other comments from me:
    • "After some time, many other regional and local leagues followed in other major cities, such as Ankara (1923), Eskişehir (1920), or İzmir (1923), to name a few." => "Other regional and local leagues followed in other major cities, including Ankara (1923), Eskişehir (1920), and İzmir (1923)."
    • "At the end of the 1924 season, Harp Okulu were the first club to be crowned champions after completing their fixtures unbeaten.[2] They are also the only club who have ever changed their name after winning a championship title having been known as Harbiye for the first of their three titles" => "At the end of the 1924 season, Harbiye were the first club to be crowned champions after completing their fixtures unbeaten.[2] They are also the only club who have ever changed their name after winning a championship title, changing their name to Harp Okulu after the first of their three titles"
    • "the three lowest-placed teams are relegated to the 1. Lig and replaced by the top three teams in that division" - not relevant to a list of champions and definitely doesn't belong in the lead
    • "No clubs were promoted or relegated during the first season" - not relevant
    • "Before the creation of a second tier league, the bottom three clubs competed with regional league winners in a competition called the Baraj Games. The top three teams of the seven team group were promoted to the Millî Lig." - not relevant
    • "(not counted and denied by TFF)" => "(not recognised by TFF)"
    • Where there really two national championships in the same year in the 1940s? With (some of) the same teams competing in both?
    • You have a section heading of "Super League", but everywhere else it is referred to by its Turkish name of Süper Lig - I see no reason why this name should not be used in the section heading too.
    • "In the table below all national championship titles since 1924 are included, comprising the Turkish Football Championship and National Division" => "In the table below all national championship titles since 1924 are included, including the Turkish Football Championship and National Division"
    • "which are denied and not counted by the Turkish Football Federation, even though they were official championships by the TFF itself." => "which are not recognised by the Turkish Football Federation, even though they were official championships organised by the TFF itself."
  • Think that is all I have.......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:36, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: All done. About both competitions existing at the same time in the 1940s, yes it is true. You can look up those seasons. The difference was the competition system and the qualification criteria: the National Division was based on a classical league system (double round robin), with the top placed clubs of the three major regional leagues (Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara; only them) as participants. The Turkish Championship was initially contested by all regional league champions (and them only). After 1941, it was played in a Final Group, consisting of the champions only of the aforementioned three major regional leagues. The fourth club was decided in a qualification play-off, which was contested by the regional league winners who could not play in the National Division. I guess that's why they both were held, so that the clubs who could not play in the National Division also had a chance to win a national championship. It's a bit complicated, and quite interesting. Definitely unique in Europe. It's a shame that they are denied and not recognised by the very same corrupt federation which held them. Hence the importance of this list article. Akocsg (talk) 19:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - all of my concerns seem to have been addressed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Row and col scopes are missing per MOS:ACCESS.
  • Second and third places don't seem to be referenced by RSSSF?
  • Shouldn't "Year" be "Season" in the table headings?
  • What are all teh stars about in the "Performance since 1957" section?
  • Check for WP:DASH violations in the ref titles e.g. Ref 13 should use an en-dash in the year range, not a hyphen.
  • RSSSF source has an author and a different publication date...

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: All done except one point (partially). Most second places are referenced by RSSSF. For those not listed and the third places you just have to look up the relevant season individually. There is no source which lists the third placed clubs extra. The other Featured Lists (List of English football champions, List of Italian football champions, List of Israeli football champions, and List of French football champions etc.) don't have them sourced either. Please don't set practically impossible standards. If there is no source which lists them specifically, there's nothing I can do. The stars are explained in the "Star rating system" section. One star is awarded for each five championship titles (for those since 1957). Akocsg (talk) 18:07, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please note, I'm not setting "practically impossible standards", I'm asking how our readers verify second and third places. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: By choosing the respective season in the RSSSF source, where the final tables and results are available. There they can be verified. An additional source has also been added (for after 1959). Akocsg (talk) 19:00, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man:@Giants2008:@Kosack: I have added the sites of Erdinc Sivritepe now in the respective columns, where the final tables (and as a result the third placed teams) are all listed without exception. I think this should be enough to verify them. Regards, Akocsg (talk) 19:25, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 01:51, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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