Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Seattle Mariners Opening Day starting pitchers

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:The Rambling Man 12:20, 7 September 2008 [1].

List of Seattle Mariners Opening Day starting pitchers

I am nominating the list of Opening Day Seattle Mariners pitchers. I have chosen not to make the table sortable, as there are multiple stretches where the ballpark stays the same, and I didn't think that listing Kingdome or Safeco Field 5 or 6 time in a row would be visually appealing. The list is comprehensive for every season of the Mariners, including 2008. Additions will be required in 2009 and so forth and will be added as announced. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 08:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Crzy cheetah 08:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~Comments for now,
- ~~Lists should be in earliest-to-latest chronological order~~
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~The "Decision" column should be explained a little more. What does "no decision" mean?~~
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where's the * for the ADLS guys?
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I don't see any * next to those guys in orange?
      - I removed the *, it was meant just to be the orange color --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~"Versus" should be "Opponent"~~
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Since you made the table sortable, which is great, you need to use {{sortname}} template in order to sort the pitchers by their last names.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- All "opponents" and "locations" should be wikilinked because of the sortable table.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Who are the Seattle Mariners? A couple of sentences are needed to explain who or what the Mariners are.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The last two images would be better placed under the Pitchers section and an "upright" parameter should be added per MOS:IMAGES
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The "years" in the table are linked to "YEAR in baseball", wouldn't it be better if they were linked to "YEAR Seattle Mariners season"?
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Crzy cheetah 20:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- All stats in the lead should be sourced
  - All of the stats from the lead are just generated from adding the stats listed in the table below. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think you still need to provide a reference to avoid violating WP:OR--Crzy cheetah 20:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Would putting in a ref that said data taken from info referenced from tables be acceptable? --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Why not just put the ref you use for the table? By the way, it worries me a little that almost all info in this page is taken from one source.--Crzy cheetah 01:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Cited lead, changed up the cites in the table. Some are dual cites, as the second cite doesn't show the end result of the game, just who is the starter. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 07:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It would be good if the image captions had different info than what we may already know from the table
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Can't you provide some interesting info on these pitchers?...such as any awards or achievements they had during the years they spent in Seattle.--Crzy cheetah 20:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 21:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Hmm...these captions don't look right. Did any of those three guys make the all-star team? or win an award of some kind? If not, I guess you can revert to the pre
        Reverted to original cites, per the comments from Metros. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 07:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Crzy cheetah 09:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks much better. The only remaining suggestion I have is to merge the last two paragraphs of the lead. Good job!--Crzy cheetah 08:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Thanks! --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 10:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

US date format: comma required, please.
- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read MOSNUM on spelling out numbers; needs a consistent boundary.
- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Past, not last.
- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't the knowledge to tell whether the lead should be bulkier than this. Tony (talk) 13:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The lead, from what I understand, just has to be able to explain and draw the reader into the table. I believe the lead has accomplished this. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 19:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. I find a lot of info. in the lead to be confusing to a lay person (I understand it fairly well as a fan, but there are a few areas with issues).:

Are the trivia in the captions necessary? How does Randy Johnson striking out Wade Boggs relate to the article? Or Moyer's 2001 20-win season? This is especially unnecessary since neither of the two were the opening day starters of the year that the piece of trivia took place.
- Was requested above --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I disagree with the captions per Wikipedia:Caption (and a general preference). Take a look at a Featured List like List of New York Jets head coaches or List of Philadelphia Phillies managers. All the captions used in the list are describing the subject and his role.
    - And thats what I had, I had something like "xxx the Opening Day starting pitcher for the xxx and xxx seasons", but I was told to make it more interesting --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC) they have been reverted to their original cites, stating which years they were the Opening Day starting pitchers. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 07:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~"have in the past thirty–two seasons have used fifteen different Opening Day starting pitchers." Confusing sentence here.~~
- Changed slightly --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~The Randy Johnson sentence has a few too many commas for my taste. It feels like an info. overload.~~
- Reworded --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - It's still an overload of information. Taking out the comma before Kingdome does not help, but actually hurts.
    - Re-reworded. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
~~The July 15, 1999 start for Moyer probably should not be in there. This list is for Opening Day of the season, not the opening of the new field.~~
- Removed --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The way you've fixed that sentence created two "has..." clauses with no linking conjunction.
    - Wow, I must not have been paying attention... Fixed. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Overall, the Mariners have a record of six wins and four losses at the Kingdome..." This should probably have a "on Opening Day" in here (or "have an Opening Day record"), otherwise it reads like an overall for all of baseball instead of just this one day thing.
- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"and their Opening Day record for these three seasons was two wins and no losses between Randy Johnson (1995), Jeff Fassero (1997) and Freddy García (2001), all of which were won in Seattle." This needs to refer to the record of the starters. The "their" is referring to the subject, the Mariners, while the stats that follow are referring to the three starters. Metros (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reworked --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 22:20, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - That created another vague issue. It now states that "these three...have an Opening Day record of two wins and no losses." Their record is greater than that, but you need to reword it to reflect that you're talking about having a 2-0 record in those three particular seasons on Opening Day. Metros (talk) 22:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Fixed. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All the issues I have are fixed, but I don't think I'll be supporting. I don't feel like this is featured content, but I can't quite put a finger on/describe why. Metros (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
- Lead image should have upright in it.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- " have in the past thirty–two seasons have had fifteen different Opening Day starting pitchers" - this is not good English.
  - changed to used, though open for suggestions --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Opening Day always capitalized? If so, check image captions etc for consistency.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Starting Pitcher should be pitcher in the table heading.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Made it to the ALDS" - doesn't read particularly encyclopedically to me.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:MOS#COLORS, don't use colours alone to designate a particular property, you need an asterisk, dagger etc as well as the colouring in the table.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "Mariners record" shouldn't that be "Mariners' record"?
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "starts with a total of six starts," -spot the redundancies - "starts with six" says the same thing.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prefer to see reference column centrally aligned.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "on Opening Day, compared to two wins and three losses at Safeco Field on Opening Day" - Opening Day overdose.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Not sure of the relevance of the opening day stats and then going on to qualify for the playoffs - presumably some huge number of games are played in the interim?
  - You are right, but I found it an interesting tidbit that is verifyable, and in my opinion would draw the reader into viewing the table, and possibly the three seasons referenced. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 14:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man (talk) 10:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

~~Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals (current ref 4)~~

Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 15:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC

Resolved comments from Killervogel5

Comments from Killervogel5

"The Seattle Mariners, a Major League Baseball team, in the American League West division, based out of Seattle, Washington, have in the past thirty–two seasons have used fifteen different Opening Day starting pitchers." - very confusing, reads like a run-on, some seriously incorrect comma usage, grammatically speaking. Consider rewording to the following: "The Seattle Mariners, a Major League Baseball franchise in the American League West division, has used fifteen different Opening Day starting pitchers in its thirty–two seasons in Seattle, Washington." - keep all links, of course, and link franchise to the appropriate section in Professional sports league organization. Also, thirty-two, while incorrect with an en-dash, should actually be 32.
- Switched to your wording --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 01:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All numbers higher than ten (especially fifteen, written several times) should be written as numerals (15, etc).
- see my response below. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Randy Johnson holds the Mariners' record of Opening Day starts with six starts," - saying starts twice is redundant, remove the second.
- Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 01:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Any reason why the records in the lead are all written out, i.e., two wins and no losses rather than 2–0?
- MOSNUM is why I wrote them out, and I was told to keep all my numbers consistant rather than having small numbers written out and large numbers as just numbers. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 23:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Be that as it may, it is inconsistent with other featured lists. Additionally, with an article that has this short of a lead, many written out numbers looks like someone trying to stretch the text. I am, of course, not implying that it was your intent to do so; however, it may appear as such to certain eyes. I still believe it needs to be changed. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 01:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made what I believe to be some final minor, but necessary, changes to the lede. I would like to see if there is further support from other reviewers before I commit. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 01:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made it 0 wins and 2 losses so that a lay person could appreciate the information. Yes, I know what 0–2 is, but not everyone knows what 0–2 is. --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 03:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fully understand your reasoning; however, saying "wins, losses, wins, losses" again and again is redundant. Therefore, I've disambiguated at the first occurrence (10 wins, 11 losses (10–11)) and it should no longer be an issue. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 11:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Works for me :) --Admrb♉ltz (t • c • log) 15:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Neutral from Killervogel5~~

Comments
- Overall looks good but I don't like how the key looks like, the word decision should be removed and the key should read from left to right, i.e. (left column) W| (right column) Win.
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (talk) 14:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- IMO, because in the lead it states how many times pitchers have been the ODP, multiple appearances should be noted, like within parenthesis i.e. Glenn Abbot (2).
  - Done --Admrb♉ltz (talk) 14:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Not quite, I didn't mean the lead, I meant in the table, it wont be needed in the lead.--S_RX 14:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done, added key item as well --Admrb♉ltz (talk) 15:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Almost, but I meant like in chronlogical order, i.e. The first time you dont need to place the number of times, the second time you would place (2), the third (3), and so on, not the total # of times over and over. Another thing instead of saying (X) say (#) (on the key).S_RX 15:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Done --Admrb♉ltz (talk) 15:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

S_RX 14:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Much better, Support meets FL?S_RX 15:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Nice lists, perfect! ~~ ĈĠ ☺ ^Simple? 19:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- While I disagree with calling any article PERFECT, I believe that the changes will let me support this list. Cheers for it remaining open so long. Support from Killervogel5

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.