Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Premier League hat-tricks/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 06:02, 31 July 2009 [1].

List of Premier League hat-tricks

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk), 03md (talk) 08:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Featured list candidates/List of Premier League hat-tricks/archive1

Lots of work sourcing this list, huge number of references. Illustrated and factually accurate. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues from Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)

Comments from Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)

Ivory Coast sorts before Australia and it shouldn't
- Odd. Just using the standard nationality templates. I'll have a look. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Doesn't sort out of order for me using IE7 I'm afraid... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - That is the strangest thing I've ever seen. I tried it on IE and it was fine but in FF Ivory Coast went to the top. I've messed around and found a fix, and I checked that it still works in IE. My frustation is that I don't understand what the two browsers were doing differently so I can't easily point to a fix if this occurs in the future. This might be something that needs looking out for in future. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 13:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I just thought, I had a couple of edit conflicts with 03md yesterday - I seem to recall we should be using {{CIV}}. That may fix it. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The 2003 match, sounds like it's famous or has been referred to before
- Slightly rephrased to denoblify it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nicolas Anelka (Arsenal, Chelsea Manchester City) need comma between names
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kevin Campbell (Arsenal, Everton, Nottingham Forest,) don't want comma after NF
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the Shearer and Solskjær images have periods after the captions like the others?
- Yes. Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ferdinand for Newcastle against Wimbledon, looks like there is a space in the middle of the score
- There was. Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[8] Football: Barmby poses a national problem is actually linked to the url of [7] Football: Deane gets about Town
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[123] Fowler fires Liverpool, actually has the url of [121] United hit Saints for six
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[176] Football: Chelsea 6–1 Derby County: Lampard hits four as Derby reel under Chelsea backlash is actually linked to the url of [175] Liverpool 4–0 West Ham
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of score ranges within the refs need ndashes, like the soccerbase ones and BBC's "Blackburn 4-3 Man Utd" theres probably a few more
- Do we fix these then? They're all direct copies from the sources...
- Can anyone point me to a suitable script so if we agree this needs to be done (no big problem) I don't have to do it by hand?! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think we should fix these but the script I usually use doesn't seem to be working at converting them :< Rambo's Revenge (talk) 13:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think I've done them all! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 12:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your eagle eyes! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, the only thing I can't/haven't checked is that it is comprehensive and has every hatrick. Assuming it does, I support this candidacy. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Would it be possible to note the time between the first and last goals in each hat-trick? Being able to sort the table by "fastest hat-trick" would be a good feature. – PeeJay 23:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It's possible but I'm not sure what we'd note for those who scored four or five goals. And it'd be a hellavualotta more work... I'm not really sure where you'd draw the line. Would you also note how many were penalties, how many headers, how many "perfect" hat-tricks... We've noted the fastest, I think that's enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Question if promoted, how soon is this list going to require the template {{update}}? Also, anybody against adding another column with for "#" ? Nergaal (talk) 01:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It won't need an update template because it will be updated when a hat-trick is scored. It only happens a few times a year right now. And no, I wouldn't have a problem with a # col but is it really needed? Sorting by date gets you the chronological order. Is it just to have a count of the number? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comment There have been occasional instances where a hat-trick was initially credited to a player, but the records were later changed following recommendations by the Dubious Goals Panel. These (or at least the concept) might be worth mentioning. Examples: [2] [3]. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Indeed. I found one in the list which was indeed dubious so it was removed. I'll have a think and add some stuff to the lead re dubious goals. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Dubious goals para added. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues from Jpeeling (talk · contribs)

Comments from Jpeeling (talk · contribs)

For some of the later away hat-tricks the result column appears to have entries the wrong way around or at least inconsistent with the rest of the list. For example Emanuel Adebayor's HT on 13 September 2008 came in a 4-0 loss for Arsenal, others I spotted are dated 26 December 2001 (Fowler), 16 October 2004, 17 December 2005, 4 February 2006, 28 October 2006, 15 December 2007 and 28 April 2008. As well as the result being wrongly ordered on Fowler's 26 December 2001 HT the result is different to the source.
Yakubu Aiyegbeni is sorted by Y in the main list but A in the additional table.
Steffen Iversen is listed as Swedish on one HT, Norwegian on the other. Less clear about Andrei Kanchelskis, a quick google news search he has been described as both Russian and Ukrainian, either way one nationality should be used. According to Wikipedia Henri Camara was born to Guinean parents but given he was born in Senegal and has played for them 99 times that would appear a more accurate nationality.
The lead states 'Nineteen players have scored more than three' but this is incorrect, there have been 19 occasions but four players have scored more than three twice, so 19 occasions or 15 players but not 19 players.
The biggest concern I have is the completeness of the list. I've found a few HTs that aren't listed: Sylvain Wiltord [4], Nick Barmby [5], Stan Collymore [6], Ray Parlour [7], and there could be more. --Jpeeling (talk) 11:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fantastic detailed review, many thanks. I've addressed your immediate concerns, but as for completeness, well there's no one definitive source for this (unless you know of one?) so if you spot any further holes in the list, I'd be extremely grateful if you can point them out. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - It probably wouldn't be considered a reliable source but this website lists the hat-tricks season by season. It may be worth checking to find any missing ones and then look for a RS to back them up. --Jpeeling (talk) 12:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Great, thanks. I'll let you know when (I think) I'm done... Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Okay, I went through every year, I think I'd missed four or five more so hopefully now all of your concerns have been addressed? Thanks for the link to the great (useful and inspiring!) site by the way. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Your praise for that site may have been premature, the Anelka HT you added is mentioned in the lead as one taken away by the Dubious Goals Committee. --Jpeeling (talk) 16:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Hah. Removed. I hope that's everything? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved all issues I could find, Support. --Jpeeling (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Looks like all my comments or issues are noted in the above reviews, which are now resolved. I can't find any further problems, good work: meets WP:WIAFL.--Truco ₅₀₃ 22:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dabs and external links check out fine.--Truco ₅₀₃ 22:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I don't think that the home team should be bolded (due to WP:MOSBOLD). Is there some other way of indicating this? - perhaps a superscript H or something like that. Boissière (talk) 20:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, a fair point. I'll get on to it tomorrow, thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually wasn't as bad as I thought. Fixed with asterisks, updated key. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was quick work! Asterisks are fine - Support Boissière (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

"Since the inception of the English association football league competition, the Premier League in 1992," Comma after "Premier League".
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"over 100 players have" Prefer "more than".
- Reworded. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The first player to achieve the feat was Frenchman Eric Cantona" Comma after here.
- Comma'd. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"four goals in 12 minutes"-->4 goals in 12 minutes or four goals in twelve minutes
- Would you mind explaining why? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:MOSNUM; comparable quantities are formatted the same. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"In 1999, Manchester United player Ole Gunnar Solskjaer scored four goals in 12 minutes as a substitute against Nottingham Forest" This seems to be a random fact; did it break any players?
- I assume you mean records. It is possibly the fastest four-goal streak, I'll go looking. The notability comes from the fact that I think (and I'll check this too) he's the only Premier League hat-tricker who's come off the bench. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - For the record, I did mean "records". Dabomb87 (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - New source found, it was indeed the fastest four-goal streak ever. Re-worded and re-cited. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The fixture between Arsenal and Southampton in 2003 saw both Jermaine Pennant and Robert Pires score a hat-trick for the home team. " Who was the home team (latter, former)?
- Added "... at Highbury ..." The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Robbie Fowler has scored nine hat-tricks while Thierry Henry and Michael Owen have scored eight hat-tricks each." "while"-->and
- Too many and's in your sentence, I've semi-coloned it. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Four players have each scored hat-tricks for three ~~different~~ clubs: "
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The Dubious Goals Committee has ruled out hat-tricks as a result of goals being credited to other players." This reads strange. Perhaps "The Dubious Goals Committee has ruled out hat-tricks that have resulted from goals' being incorrectly credited."
- Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text lesson time: generally, there shouldn't be names of people in alt text, for two reasons: 1) that info is already mentioned in the caption, and alt text shouldn't repeat info in the caption; 2) Alt text simply describes the picture, so there is no interpretation – for example, if you looked at File:Michael Owen 072007 cropped.jpg without an image caption, you probably wouldn't be able to tell it was Michael Owen.
- Well really. The alt text (which seems to show up on IE7 but not Safari) now reads quite basic, nothing like the alt text you get on the BBC, for instance. I really wonder if this is what a blind person or one with similar limited access to this website wants to hear. But hey ho, lesson learnt - based on your "A man in casual clothing" alt, I've added others. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are quite a few redirects; consult your handy redirect script.
- You are aware that redirects don't actually need to be fixed if they redirect correctly, are you not? I'll see what I can do though. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - The diacritics and such should be addressed though. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm not sure that's true really, because I would assume COMMONNAME here, like all the sources do. But diacritics fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dabomb87 (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~I'm ignorant about football sources, but what make Sky Sports and Sporting Life reliable?~~ Dabomb87 (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sky Sports is the main sponsor of the Premier League (since its inception), broadcasts scores of Premier League matches around the world every year, is run by British Sky Broadcasting. It is the pre-eminent European sports network (i.e. think ESPN). Sporting Life is, through a media group, also wholly owned by Sky. You can read about them here. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 22:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~If every team is going to be linked in the lead, Wigan should be as well.~~
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Not 100% sure Shearer's first name needs to be repeated in the lead.~~
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The Dubious Goals Committee has ruled out hat-tricks that have resulted from goals being incorrectly credited to other players." Wait a minute. If other players didn't deserve the goals, why wouldn't the players be given hat-tricks? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially when the next two sentences are about goals given to other players.
- The Dubious Goals Committee rules out hat-tricks after the event. So players who score hat-tricks during the game (or at least think they do) are credited with them until the goals are taken away and awarded to someone else afterwards. This can take days. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - But the sentence implies that the committee is making errors in its rulings ("that have resulted from goals being incorrectly credited to other players."). Shouldn't this say that the players originally credited with hat-tricks were given goals they didn't deserve? Or am I just reading this the wrong way? Giants2008 (17–14) 00:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - No, the Committee don't award goals, they just take them away. Goals are awarded during the matches, the committee sits days afterwards. It doesn't say that the Committee credited the goals to the players. I've tried to add a timeframe for each event (ie goals/committee decision) - see if that helps. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - The part that is confusing me is the "other players" bit. Is it meant to refer to the would-be hat-trick scorers, or the players who ultimately received credit for the goals? If the former, it's problematic because Anelka did have hat-tricks in his career, meaning he's not really an "other player" (different from those on the list). It almost reads like the latter, though I don't think that's the intention. Giants2008 (17–14) 02:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        I've removed the word "other" as I agree it wasn't helping. I'm not sure there's much else I can do with this. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Solskjaer caption: Would be nice to see it briefly mention when the game was played.~~
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Ronaldo caption: 84 league goals could use a cite.~~
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (17–14) 20:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Another nice list by TRM, well-formatted and written as usual. The one sticking point preventing me from supporting before was the "other players" bit in the hidden comments, and the word cut took care of that. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"that have resulted from goals' being incorrectly..." - pretty sure the apostrophe needs to go as the goals are in the passive and there is nothing belonging to goals.
- Though quaint, this is actually grammatically correct. See this. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
neither of the navboxes at the bottom include this list. I would remove them and add Template:Premier League instead (or Template:Premier League teamlist if you don't want to include seasons).
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Though I'm definitely not one for overdoing the lead in a list, I think certain basic introductory information is required. In this case I think it is worth just quickly defining what the Premier League is, i.e. the top division of English football since 1992.
- Note added, although I think the linking of Premier League, and the statement of 1992 already in the lead should be sufficient. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was expecting the scores to be written hat-trick scorer's team first, rather than home team first. The way you have done it is OK though and is internally consistent, but could a footnote be added to the "Result" column header to say that the home team's score is listed first? It was obvious to me once I started reading the table, but it may be worth clarifying with a footnote, particularly as there are a few instances where both teams score 3 or more, and also for those who follow American sports where the away team's score is usually listed first. --Jameboy (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The note is already there, at the top of the table, under Key. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments Jameboy. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'd missed that note - I really shouldn't review articles so late at night! --Jameboy (talk) 11:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{FLC}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.