Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of NK Maribor players/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Hahc21 00:31, 23 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of NK Maribor players

Nominator(s): Ratipok (talk) 13:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because... I believe I have addressed all the issues and concerns that have been expressed by reviewers during this article's first FLC nomination, nearly a month ago. If there is anything else that needs to be resolved, feel free to write a comment, and I will be happy to fix the problem. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 13:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. I promised the nominator I'd review this by Wednesday lunchtime or else they could feel free to shout at me, so here's a quick mention of stuff still outstanding from the first nomination. Not quite a full review, but I will return (honest)...

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*Colour symbols. I think the symbol templates are supposed to be written out in words, as {{section-sign|alt=InternationalClub}} rather than {{§|alt=InternationalClub}}, so that users of screen readers can cope both in reading and editing mode.

Comment R: I am not sure exactly on what needs to be done here. Can you gave me a clue? I was actually instructed to use the colour symbols the way they are used in this list, by other reviewers on articles that I have [successfully] nominated for FL in the past (e.g. Slovenian football champions, NK Maribor seasons).

Sorry, my lack of clarity as usual. As I understand it (perhaps I'm wrong:...

We use these templates for those symbols that screen-readers can't read. The templates are named things like {{Section-sign}} or {{Dagger}}, but have redirects that just consist of the relevant symbol, e.g. {{§}} or {{†}}. If we write the template call using the symbol redirect, as e.g. {{§|alt=International Club}}, a screen-reader user reading the article will correctly hear the alt-text words "International Club". However, a screen-reader user trying to edit that source in the edit-window, where they're working with the un-rendered code, won't hear anything useful when the machine comes to the § symbol.

If instead of writing the symbol redirect, we write the proper name of the template, as e.g. {{section-sign|alt=InternationalClub}}, the result looks the same to the sighted user reading the article and sounds the same to the screen-reader user reading the article, but it also works for the screen-reader user in edit mode, because they'll hear the word "section-sign" rather than whatever their software does with things it can't read. Struway2 (talk)

Comment R: Ok, then I will try to resolve the problem. Though, I was always under the impression that the colour symbols and marks are for those readers that are colour blind or cant see the colour on their screens:) Ratipok (talk) 00:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The symbols are for the benefit of anyone who can't use colours for any reason, whether technological or disability-related; they're used in combination with alt text for the benefit of users who can't use images for any reason, again, whether technological or disability-related. Struway2 (talk)

The words above the table say that the table is accurate a at the 11/12 season, yet Marcos Tavares' stats (for example) are considerably more up to date than that...

Comment R: A minor problem and I will fix it:)

Also, the "last" column sorts the dashes for the current squad below the lowest real "last" date. Suggest you force them to sort high.

Comment R: No problem.

List is ordered by number of appearances... then what, if more than one player have the same number of apps?

C:I have made the list to order by the number of appearances. In the case that two or more players have the same number of apps the player who has made the debut for the club first is listed on top.

Think it's fairly standard for these lists to mention which competitions are included in the stats.

C:Will add something in the key section. Not a problem.

In Marcos Tavares' image caption, does "active" mean "currently playing for Maribor" or just "currently playing"?

C:Changed.

Redlinks. About a third of the players listed are redlinks, which IMO is rather more than "a minimal proportion" as per FL criterion 5a. Are all the players listed "notable" in a WP:NFOOTBALL sense? any who are not should be de-linked, which would reduce the number and proportion of redlinks.

Comment R: Yeah, I know thats a problem. I can solve it, for at least a few players, by creating new articles (like I have done with Tomislav Prosen and Branko Horjak). The problem is with diacritics in some of the players first or last names. If I dont use; example Milan Šober, I get a problem with sorting.

The {{sortname}} template has a |nolink=1 parameter for names that shouldn't be linked. Struway2 (talk)

I see you've de-linked all the previously redlinked players. How it should work is, if a player is notable as per WP:NFOOTBALL, i.e. has played in a fully professional league, their name should be linked. For instance, Tomaž Murko is still playing in the Slovenian PrvaLiga, which is listed as a fully-pro league at WP:FPL, so is clearly notable and should have his name linked. Only if the player has never played at a notable level should their name be unlinked.

Not sure what the case is for the former Yugoslav First League, when football was in theory amateur but the top division contained major clubs and players played full-time: the football notability criteria don't address the matter. Don't suppose anyone who only played in the Yugoslav lower divisions would count as having played at a notable level, but maybe those who played in the top division should? Struway2 (talk)

Comment R:I will take a look at the players that dont have articles, during this weekend, and will create couple of new ones. Ratipok (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope some of this stuff helps. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. Thanks for your comments, I will try to resolve the issues addressed by tomorrow evening. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 13:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment R: I believe I have properly addressed all issues mentioned above. I added the as off for the active players and updated their stats. Will keep updating them until the end of the season (only five league and one cup match left). Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 00:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Where a player has appeared at senior international level for more than one country, as Rocky Siberie, I'd include both/all

C:If I list both (I did at the beginning), then we have a sorting problem. With Rocky's case we would have the Netherlands Antilles (first) and Curacao (second) listed in one paragraph. Similar thing with Milko Djurovski (Yugoslavia/Macedonia). How would we then fix the sorting problem? As it is now, I simply mentioned one NT in the players list (the one player was eligible to play for, while a member of Maribor) and added a footnote mentioning the full story.

Not sure why choosing to display one country and sort by that one, is a better solution than displaying both and choosing one to sort by. The footnote can still explain why there are two. The List of Birmingham City F.C. players family display the highest international level played for each country, so there are several with two and Neil Kilkenny with three; the comparable case would be Owen Madden in the <25 apps list, who played for both Ireland teams in the 1930s (see Key for explanation), and his cell displays both countries and sorts on the first one played for.

C:For me personally its not a problem if there are both countries listed in one paragraph. The only thing is that in that case Curacao will be sorted second under the Netherlands Antilles and Macedonia under Yugoslavia. As I said, at the beginning I listed both countries and changed that due to minor sorting problems as I felt that this could be perceived as a problem by FLC reviewers. If its not, then I can easily list both countries;) Ratipok (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What makes national-football-teams.com and foradejogo.com a reliable source?

C:Another problem. It seems FIFA official website doesnt have each individual cap for every player. For exapmle, there isnt a problem finding a reliable Bosnian references for example Samir Duro who has represented Bosnia and Herzegovina, because I understand the language (even though FIFA websited doesnt have him in their database). But, what am I to do with Hungarian Stzipanovics or Capo Verdean Nilton:)? Ratipok (talk) 16:31, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RSSSF for Sztipanovics. Haven't yet found one for Nilton, but still looking... If there are any more you're struggling with, let me know at my talk page. Struway2 (talk)

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Surprised to see playing positions disappeared since the last nomination. Are they really unsourceable?

Comment R: Actually they are, for the most part. I cant find sources for about half of the players on the list (mostly those from the Yugoslav period). I know for most of the players, on which position they played, but cant back that up with sources. Unfortunatley, NK Maribor official website only has pure stats about the players and not their positions or at least minor presentations.

Support, I think. The redlinks have come down to an approaching-minimal proportion, and are still coming down, so I don't have a problem with that. Unreliable sources have gone, I think, and one internationally-capped player for whom we can't find a reliable source has been removed until and unless. Nominator has been unbelievably co-operative dealing with the matters raised at the first FLC and with the pickiness of this review. I'm not thrilled with the absence of playing positions, but the club website archives lists every goal scored by any given player and every match he played in but not his playing position, and the PrvaLiga website does likewise. Without a Slovenian equivalent of Neil Brown's site, I'd rather not have the positions at all than have them individually ref'd to random bits of newsprint. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 23:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

"has most appearances and has scored most goals." Needs two "the"s, one before each of the "most"s.
Players: "The table that follows is accurate As of 8 May 2013." "As" shouldn't be capitalized.
Dimitar Makriev photo caption needs "the" before 2006–07.
"Director" doesn't need capitalization in the Zlatko Zahovic photo.
Another "the" is needed before 1993–94 in footnote A.
Ref 35 needs an en dash in the title to replace the hyphen. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment R: Hello again. I have done everything of the above, except the As of capitalization. The problem is that I have used the Wikipedia:As of method and it seems that the "As" capitalization is automatic!? I have written a msg on the Wikipedia talk:As of section and I a hope someone will be able to help. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 13:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done: The as off capitalization was fixed, thanks to User:Matej1234. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 14:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment - last two general references are dead. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that something is wrong with the website I have used (dont know if its permanent or just temporary). Luckily the glitch affected only nine players/stats (six Bosnian and three Yugoslav internationals) and this will be an easy fix. I will use individual references for those players. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 21:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Added individual references for each player. Ratipok (talk) 22:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The inclusion of a column to indicate the number of seasons each player spent at the club is interesting. Not sure if it's necessary, especially given the fact that the player who has spent the most seasons at a club will, most often, be conspicuous as the player who has made the most appearances. This may not be the case with all clubs, nor will it also be the case with Maribor, but in this case it is, which makes me question the worth of this column. Furthermore, I'm not sure I like the inclusion of Rene Krhin or Zlatko Zahovic, since they never played for the club. In fact, both of them had at least one more club before getting anywhere near the pitch for a first-team match. Otherwise, the prose is clearly good, the article lead is certainly comprehensive when it comes to introducing the topic and the list is comprehensive to boot. I didn't understand the inclusion criteria to begin with, but I think I've got it now. The rest of the FL criteria seem to have been met as well, so by my reckoning, as long as you delete Krhin and Zahovic from the list, you can have my support. The seasons column matters little to me, but I must insist about Krhin and Zahovic. – Pee Jay 21:42, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello and thank you for your comments. I have removed Krhin and Zahovic from the list (their pics as well). I would have preferred to left the seasons column as it is, but I don't have any problems deleting it, if required. Lep pozdrav, Ratipok (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for dealing with that so quickly. I really don't mind if the seasons column stays or goes, but at least you got rid of Krhin and Zahovic. You have my support now. – Pee Jay 00:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support I like how the scope of the list if defined. I would prefer though if the intro would also state how many players played at least 100 games, how many players were capped while at the club, and perhaps even how many players scored at least 10 or 50 goals. Nergaal (talk) 04:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.