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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 00:25, 11 January 2011 [1].

List of Michigan Wolverines head football coaches

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List of Michigan Wolverines head football coaches (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jweiss11 (talk) 13:39, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it's an excellent, well formatted and sourced list. Its structure differs, but may be superior in some ways, to similar featured lists such as List of Oklahoma Sooners head football coaches. Jweiss11 (talk) 13:39, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WFC:

  • The prose below the table is a good addition, and really enhances the list IMO. Nonetheless, the lead needs to be longer, so as to provide a summary of the rest of the list.
  • Don't really see the point of the "#" column; it's redundant to the date column.
  • Schembechler's profile is noticeably short.
  • I had to remove the unsourced Rodriguez info per BLP policy. If the material can be reliably sourced, it might be worthy of re-inclusion, although beware of making that section disproportionately large.
  • Ninety years of Hall of Fame inductees is in a somewhat random place.
  • It's not obvious at a glance, what is sourcing the table itself? I'm not suggesting that everything in the table needs inline citation, but I can't see any referencing in the Coaches section.

The above points notwithstanding, this does look promising. —WFC— 15:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • WFC makes good points, and I won't review the list in detail quite yet.
  • My instinct is that instead of 18 sub-sections "profiling" the coaches, these should be incorporated into a lead section, and I would look at List of Manchester City F.C. managers for inspiration.
  • I'm not sure I need the statistical lead section as I can sort the table for myself. Is there anything there which isn't in the list?

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - Ref 51, 52 don't use {{Cite web}}. also you overuse align=center in the table coding, it'd be better to add style="text-align:center" in the table head. Bit confused also as to why there were no coaches from 1879-1890, a note wouldn't hurt. Afro (Talk) 23:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fixed the refs that weren't using a citation template. Looks like it was actually #50 and #51. I also fixed the style="text-align:center issue. This looks like code that was pulled over from featured lists of the same type like the List of Oklahoma Sooners head football coaches. I suppose those should all be updated. I'm going to work on something regarding a note for no coaches before 1891. This was typical of college football teams in the early days before the 1890s. I think the explanation is something along the lines that football in those days was more of an ad hoc student activity as opposed to a fully sanctioned and budgeted university program. Many coaches in the late 1800s and early 1900s were unpaid, often students or recent graduates who had, perhaps, played on the team the year before. The editor who created this list (User:Cbl62) has done a ton of research on this era of football and can probably explain this best. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The idea of professional football coaches did not gain wide traction until after 1900. In writings from that time, it appears that the notion was frowned upon as something inconsistent with the nature of collegiate sports. In the early days, teams did select a captain and there was also a student manager. It appears that the captain and manager performed many of the functions (including developing game strategy and arranging for practice sessions) that would later be considered "coaching" duties, but historical sources do not treat captains and managers as being equivalent to coaches. Cbl62 (talk) 19:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This type of information needs to be made available somewhere in the article for the average reader who might stumble across this. Afro (Talk)
  • Oppose - I'm going to oppose as no progress has been made to address any problems within this article, almost seems that the nominator is just content on updating the list. Afro (Talk) 23:20, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – As far as I can tell, the table isn't being cited by anything. Is the external link meant to be a general reference for the table? If so, you'd be better off to format it as such. If the references used in the prose section are meant to also cite the table, it would be wise to include them there in a seperate Ref. row. In addition, I think the lead should be longer than it currently is, especially for a list of this length. I was looking forward to reading the profiles of the coaches (unique for lists of this type), but until these basics issues are resolved I don't feel comfortable reviewing further either. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand why we want a big lead for lists. The meat and potatoes of these list articles are the tables, aren't they? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, one of the criteria for FLs is that lists should have "an engaging lead", and I'm not sure a five-line lead can be said to be that engaging. Just look at the lead for the Sooners list you linked at the top. It's not a huge lead, but it serves its purpose as a nice introduction. That list and the other similar featured coach lists (of which there are many in the various sports) are good models for what to place in the lead. Perhaps some basic details from the coach summaries, such as national championship-winning coaches, could be added. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've expanded the lead. How's it look now? Jweiss11 (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Better. I've striken the oppose above until I can return and offer a more thorough review. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't fully reviewed my original comments but one of my suggestions remain, that you take this list and treat it more like a good article with a featured list framework like the List of Manchester City F.C. managers. This list is currently not quite what I'd expect to see as our "finest work". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article needs to employ the {{fix bunching}} templates.
  • You might want to link team season articles in the WP:CAPTIONs.
  • You should reformat the Statistical leaders section in two or three columns. Try the {{Div col}} template.
done, reformatted into two columns Jweiss11 (talk) 03:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 20:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – Finally am back to offer a prose review.
  • Spell out NCAA in the first sentence.
done Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty sure the 1200 should have a comma in it.
done, added comma Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence about their wins and winning percentage being national records needs a cite, unless it happens to be cited later.
done, citation added to lead Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the coach profiles, the part about Frank Crawford coaching at three other schools and the last couple sentences of William McCauley's summary appear uncited as well.
Citations added for Crawford coaching at others schools. Citation for McCauley moved; can also cover loss to Harvard. Still need a citation for "the 1895 Wolverines laid claim to Michigan's first Western football championship." Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gustave Ferbert: Typo hidden in "The 1898 team coached by Ferbert finished with a perfrect 10–0 record...".
done, typo fixed Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Harry G. Kipke: "the Wolverines finished in an eighth place tie in Big Ten...". Add "the" before conference name?
done, missing word added Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bennie Oosterbaan: Missing word in "Crisler retired as head coach after the 1947 to become...".
done, missing word added Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bit about him coaching other Michigan teams needs a citation.
done, relevant citation pulled from article on Oosterbaan and added Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The general reference should be bulleted.
done Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
done Jweiss11 (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Given Rich Rodriguez's firing today, this article could be a little unstable for a bit. Things should settle down when a new coach is named. Jweiss11 (talk) 22:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest you withdraw the nomination until such a time that we know what's going on? You will be more than welcome to renominate once the list is updated to reflect current affairs, of course. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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