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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:Scorpion0422 22:30, 2 December 2008 [1].

List of Germany international footballers

[edit]

Self-nom. I believe this list fits the FL criteria, as it:

  1. Is Well-written
  2. Is well-defined by its lead
  3. Is as comprehensive as would be practical, with clear inclusion criteria
  4. Is navigable and sortable
  5. Is consistent with the Wikipedia MoS
  6. Uses colours, formatting and images to convey and illustrate information
  7. Is largely consistent and uncontroversial, with only occasional updates required.

I believe it is of comparable quality to equivalent FLs, such as List of Sweden international footballers. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Cannibaloki 05:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC) [reply]
Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Weak Support Oppose Almost a quick-fail. Needs significant work, let us go down the failed FL criteria:

  • Lead: The lead is nowhere large enough. Provide some background information on the footballers. Write about notable footballers and significant stats. The lead should provide enough context for the reader rather than a dull introduction to the table. There should not be a sentence in the lead for "see also"; those references belong in the See also section and the Categories.
  • Comprehensiveness: Needs a key. What I said about expanding the lead above applies here.
  • Style: Breaches WP:MOSDASH in the lead; replace those hyphens (national team - it covers players with 20 or more appearances) with en dashes. Breaches WP:ACCESS and WP:COLORS in table, use symbols such as (* ^ #) to provide information in conjunction with the colors.
  • Referencing: Needs inline citations. This lack of inlines is understandable, because as of yet there is no need to verify the lead, which right now is just a description of a table. However, when you expand the lead and add appropriate info, add inline citations as needed.

All in all, needs a lot of work Dabomb87 (talk) 13:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC) More Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)[reply]

  • Looks much better.
  • Inline citations should go after punctuation.
    • done
  • "and during this time many of its players have made a significant impact on the game." This is a vague phrase that can be deleted.
    • done
  • I still think the lead can be expanded more. Add more information about individual players (most appearances, most wins, most awards) and games.
    • done - expanded significantly
  • "20 of its players have won both the World Cup and UEFA European Championship and five have won gold, silver and bronze medals at the World Cup. " Per MOSNUM, sentences should not start with a numeral. "20"-->Twenty.
    • No longer the beginning of a sentence
  • "In addition five players have won" Comma after addition.
    • No longer applicable
  • "Due to the country's turbulent 20th century history" Instead of adding a POV word like turbulent, provide more background on what exactly made Germany's history "turbulent" (wars, political strife, economic concerns, etc.).
    • Changed - all the events that affected the team are specified
  • "many of Germany's 1938 World Cup squad were from the then-annexed Austria"—"many"-->most.
    • not done- 9 of 22 were Austrian, so it wasn't most
  • "After World War II, and the break-up of Germany" First comma is not needed.
    • done
  • "During this time"—"time"-->period.
    • done
  • "plus"-->including.
    • Not done - I've changed to 'and', because it's not really including; it's an intersect
  • You don't need to link column headers since they are linked in the key.
    • done
  • Add all the column headers to the key (Pos and caps).
    • done
  • Spell out the lesser-known abbreviations in the references (FIFA, RSSSF, UEFA).
    • done
  • Add format=PDF to reference 5. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • done
  • Shouldn't the page title be "List of German international footballers"?
    • No - naming convention on WP uses the national team name - to show that it's players who played for Germany, not just any German international, which could include players for the other German national teams, dual nationals, etc. Otherwise resolved ArtVandelay13 (talk) 09:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "World football" Why is this capitalized?
  • Reference 5 needs a last access date. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5

Strong oppose Agreed as above with DB87 on all counts. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 17:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Currently neutral. Still a couple of issues.
  • There are images in the table area but none in the lead. Move up one of the images to the lead section.
  • In the key, you don't need to link the position and the abbreviation. Just link the spelled-out name.
OK - both issues resolved. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:10, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per everyone else's resolved comments, I support this list for promotion. I applaud the FL community for working together on this list that needed a lot of edits and a lot of eyes, and also editor ArtVandelay13 for his continuous work for the last two weeks. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 12:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments by Chrishomingtang

Comment

    • I think each citation should be placed after the punctuation, not before.
      • done
    • "Several hundred players" is unclear. Do you know the exact number?
      • not done - Can't find it, unfortunately
    • "One of the most successful national teams" is pov, in my opinion. You can't say that unless a specific source says that.
      • I've justified that statement a bit more
    • What is the Ballon d'Or? People who know nothing about football/soccer won't know
      • done - Clarified
    • Does this list include East Germany national footballers? I think you should clarify that in the lead
      • done - Clarified

—Chris! ct 21:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved review by SRX
  • Since the Germany national football team's first official match in 1908,[1] it has been represented by several hundred players. - several is WP:WEASEL, needs to be more specific.
  • It has been one of the most successful national teams in world football, having participated in sixteen World Cups and ten European Championships, winning three of each[2]. the citation should go after the period.
  • I can't find the specific number, so I've removed it as it's not really relevant and is fairly self-evident.
  • In doing so, 20 of its players have won both titles, and five have won gold, silver and bronze medals at the World Cup. - so in winning the world titles, 20 of the players have won both titles? That doesn't make sense, do you mean 2 teams of players have won it?
  • It means that of the three world cup wins and three european championship wins, 20 players have been involved in one of each.
  • Lothar Matthäus has played in a record 25 World Cup matches and his participation in five World Cup tournaments is a joint record. - joint with what other player?
  • done
  • Matthäus was the inaugural winner of the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 1991,[5] and is one of five Germany players to have been awarded European Footballer of the Year – Franz Beckenbauer and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge each having won the award twice. - reword Matthäus was the inaugural winner of the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 1991,[5] and is one of five German players to have been awarded the European Footballer of the Year – Franz Beckenbauer and the Karl-Heinz Rummenigge on two occasions.
  • done
  • Beckenbauer was also voted in eighth place for the FIFA Player of the Century award, and was named in the World Team of the 20th Century. - eight place is really not as notable as in the top 5. Also, do you mean he was selected as a player in the WT of the 20th century? (selected works better in that sentence)
  • eigthth is still pretty notable among the millions of people that played football during the 20th century. Other change done
  • Ten German players were named in the FIFA 100,[8] a list of the 125 greatest living footballers chosen by Pelé, and six are in the FIFA Century Club, having earned 100 or more caps. - who/what is Pele? Caps is WP:JARGON, needs to be elaborated as it is not a common term. Are needs to be changed to were for past tense.
  • done, except the Century Club remains present tense - they still have 100+ caps, so it stays with them.
  • Lothar Matthäus' 150 caps make him the ninth most capped player in world football, while Gerd Müller's 68 goals (in just 62 games) is the eighth most of any international player. - remove just.
  • done
  • Germany's borders underwent many changes during the 20th century, and which had an effect on the make-up of the German football team. - remove and.
  • done
  • Following the annexation of Austria, the Austrian team was absorbed into the German team, with the result that Germany's 1938 World Cup squad included many Austrians. - absorbed is wordy, merged would work better.
  • not done - merged suggests a more equal partnership than was the case. The country and team was still called Germany in every respect.
  • During this period the team was commonly known as West Germany[14] until reunification in 1990, when the East German team was re-integrated into the German national team. - add a the before reunification. Also, reintegrated is one word, no need for the dash.
  • done
  • It includes all players with 20 more appearances, or 10 or more goals, for the German team, and all capped players that were in the squad for a World Cup or European Championship finals. - very repetitive, how about It includes players with over 20 appearances, over 10 scored goals, and all capped players that were in the squad for a World Cup or European Championship finals.
  • Not done - the current sentence better explains that it's any of these criteria, not all
My oppose remains per prose issues.TRUCO 21:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed your comments above. Responses in italics. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 15:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - my review was resolved to meet WP:WIAFL. Sorry for the late revisit.--SRX 01:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Oppose from Gary King (talk · contribs)
  • "Matthäus was the inaugural winner of the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 1991,[5] and is one of five Germany players to have been awarded European Footballer of the Year – Franz Beckenbauer and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge on two occasions." – Shouldn't it be "one of three Germany players" if the other two won twice each? Also, it's worded strangely anyways at the end; the "person and person on two occasions" doesn't fit in well with the rest of the sentence
    • No, it's five players, two have which have won twice (seven wins). I've changed the last sentence to "twice each"
  • "ninth most" – "ninth-most"
    • done
  • "while Gerd" – "and Gerd"
    • done
  • "eighth most" – "eighth-most"
    • done
  • "many changes during" – linking "changes" to History of Germany? That's quite an assumption to think that readers will know where the word "changes" links to (readers should already have an idea of where links lead to, otherwise the links are poorly placed). Either remove the link or link a larger phrase, like "underwent many changes during the 20th century"—I assume that this is related to WWI and WWII, so probably would be more logical to even link to a specific section in the article concerning these events.
    • done - linked to a more appropriate article
  • "with the result that Germany's 1938 World Cup squad included many Austrians." – "resulting in Germany's 1938 World Cup squad to include many Austrians."
  • "break-up of Germany" – perhaps link to a relevant article about the creation of West and East Germany
    • done - covered above
  • "During this period the" – "During this period, the"
    • done

Gary King (talk) 20:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've addressed your recommendations. Comments in italics. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 21:51, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made a few more changes, but a few issues still remain.
  • "Notes" column should not be sortable; why would anyone want to sort it? The information in there is not comparable, alphabetically-speaking.
    • Done - I wasn't aware you can do this with individual columns
  • Check the table's sorting. "Klaus Allofs" and "Karl Allgöwer" are in the wrong order, for instance. Use {{sortname}} if the article isn't already.
    • Done - sortname is used, this row was incorrectly placed
  • "captain, with" – "captain, and has"
    • Done
  • "most successful era" – seems a bit subjective to me
    • It's qualified by mentioning that they won the two competitions consecutively; they haven't done this at any other time. I feel that adding more detail would be inappropriate for an image caption

Gary King (talk) 03:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, same drill. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 16:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Gary King (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • For the benefit of those of your readers with less than perfect eyesight, please consider using normal rather than small font size for the notes column.
  • done
  • Numeric columns would look better either numerically-aligned (as done in player infoboxes), or centred; anything but left-aligned, really.
  • done
  • What's the significance of "Ehrenspielführer"?
  • It's established in the key, but I've added a reference to it
  • Perhaps change the caption of the Ballack picture to something like "Ballack was appointed captain in yyyy"; as it stands, it needs an as-of date and updating every game.
  • done

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

replied. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
resolved satisfactorily. Struway2 (talk) 09:48, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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