Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Everton F.C. managers

List of Everton F.C. managers

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 11 days, 7 support, 0 oppose. Promote. Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another list in the tradition of WP:FOOTBALL's continual push for excellence in all things list-like. I took an already relatively comprehensive list and turned it into something slightly better, with a lead, plenty of citations from the best sources possible for each manager and even a nice little photo of David Moyes. I'd be delighted to hear from the community, and, as always, thanks in advance for your time. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support All issues I raised at the PR were addressed, another excellent contribution form TRM, one of our very best Wikipedians ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"one of"? Lol I refer you to WP:WEASEL :-) --Dweller (talk) 11:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support My fiddly concerns already dealt with. Good stuff. --Dweller (talk) 11:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support Good work. Mattythewhite (talk) 15:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
~~Comment~~ Support Not too keen on the footnote stating Theo Kelly was the first true manager of the club. A little explanation of the difference between the roles of secretary and manager would be useful. If included, it would make matters clearer and render this footnote unnecessary. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I'll do my best to re-English and expand the point. Tomorrow! The Rambling Man (talk)

Done Footnote removed, really was already redundant as there was a note in the text. I have expanded the text a bit and added another citation. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment just a few (very) minor points, otherwise I will undoubtedly support this.Everyone tip-top now. Support Peanut4 (talk) 19:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- Done Everton's first season in the newly founded Football League. Would this be better with a season attached to those unaware of when the league was founded? Though Football League is wikilinked so that may prove good enough.
- Done with the league success punctuated by another FA Cup triumph Perhaps successes rather than success.
- Done March, 1997 ought to be March 1997 without the comma.
- Done Howard Kendall initially proved to be unpopular. Do you have a reference for this? Peanut4 (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You.... you.... okay, all good points. As above with Senor El Paso's issues, I'll deal with tomorrow. Pffuff. But by then I'm hoping to be England Coach... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Cuff and Catterick, who form relative clauses like this one, require commas ~~after~~ before the who. Catterick might need re-phrasing slightly. English isn't my strongest subject, so if I'm wrong on this then I apologise! --Jameboy (talk) 22:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure. If you mean a comma before the who, as you have in your comment, then I can see why, but not after... The Rambling Man (talk) 09:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's not fullproof but running the Word grammar checker across the sentences doesn't throw up any problems either, so I think I'll leave it. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that was what you meant! Anyway, as I said, the grammar checks out fine as far as I can see so I'll leave it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comment~~ now Support
- Done Despite relegation to the... sentence, take out win (you can't win two successful appearances in the Charity Shield).
- Done The club returned to the top tier... They finished 2nd, not 3rd; and it'd say what you mean if you turned it round After finishing second ..., the club returned to the top tier of English football, the level at which ....
- Done Kendall, reckoned by some... Who? your reference only says many within the game, which is just as weaselly.
- Done proved unpopular with the Goodison crowd... Reference? and needs a comma, or the sentence split into two.
- Done He would return is conditional, not past. Just he returned is fine.
- Done Split Walter Smith sentence ...his first three seasons. Facing relegation... (or with a semicolon)
- Done Lose comma before David Moyes (or put another one after him).
- You reference manager stats to Soccerbase, as there are well-recognised problems with Soccerbase figures, have you cross-checked against any other source? I ask specifically because several managers' stats differ from those on the Everton website. Why choose Soccerbase ahead of Everton FC, where there is a choice? And why Everton FC for Carey?
  - I selected Soccerbase for the early management as they are the only source available on-line, even the club doesn't seem to have those records available. Everton FC stats were selected in every case where the records exceeded those on Soccerbase. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - My apologies on that one, for some reason I had misread the footnotes and thought there were some more recent ones where you'd gone with Soccerbase. Struway2 (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Did Everton play between Carey and Catterick?
  - Yes, three matches, but I can find no record of who was caretaker if indeed there was one. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Done I have a smallish screen at 1024x768, any greater resolution on this screen and I can't see the small writing, let alone read it :-) For me, McIntosh's Honours column entry occupies ten lines and Howard Kendall's twelve, with no more than 3 words on each. Do you need to write in full Caretaker (and, particularly, Player-manager/caretaker) in the notes column, rather than either having a footnote or writing Caretaker in small under the manager's name? Or if you must, at least put a space after the slash in Player-manager/caretaker, so it can wrap.
- Done Do you need the almost-invisible dashes to denote no honours won? If you're sure you do, then Gordon Lee deserves one as well.

Sorry I missed the very brief peer review or this lot could have been sorted before ever reaching this stage. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry you missed it too. No big deal, I appreciate the comments wherever they're placed. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That really is a tremendous improvement, thanks. Have changed to Support. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find any problems with it. All the fiddly things seem to have been dealt with. If Struway can't find a problem then there probably isn't one. The only thing I could find was that the managers template was missing a link to the list. I have added it now. Looks good. Well done (again). Oh and Support Woodym555 (talk) 14:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Can't find anything wrong with this article at all, but I have a notoriously poor eye for items that need referencing, etc. Seriously, though, great article. KUTGW. – Pee Jay 14:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The dates for Royle and Watson overlap. For the early managers where Soccerbase is the source, it might be better to just put the month with no day - Soccerbase uses the first of the month when the exact day is not known, which barring an extreme coincidence looks to be the case here. Oldelpaso (talk) 18:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's weird isn't it? But both dates are sourced from Everton's official website, so this looks like a case of verifiability over truth. Unless we can find another source...? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's not always reliable but soccerbase has Joe Royle leaving March 27 here. Peanut4 (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This from the Independent confirms he resigned on soccerbase's date. Watson's start date per Everton would appear to be the date of the next match they played, and Royle's end date per Everton would appear to be a typo for the date of the last match they played while he was manager, 22 March (not April) 1997. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Carey's end date per Everton is 15 April, not 1 April (so the answer to my question above as to whether anyone played between Carey and Catterick should have been no ;-) You may want to give the rest a quick proofread. EFChistory's managers page is quite helpful. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed both Royle and Carey, added a new ref for Royle. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 10:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Following on from this, you may want to explain somewhere that the from/to dates as taken from Everton F.C. are all dates of first/last games played under that manager rather than dates of appointment.

Also, there seems to be a 12-month gap between McIntosh and Kelly. cheers, Struway2 13:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

God bless Soccerbase. Not sure why any of us use it! Oh well, fixed again and in the main text. And a note added re use of Everton's own website. Despite even that being problematic it appears! The Rambling Man 14:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]