Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of England national football team hat-tricks/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 06:02, 31 July 2009 [1].

List of England national football team hat-tricks

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk), 03md (talk), 17:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Featured list candidates/List of England national football team hat-tricks/archive1

Nice list, illustrated, trebled in size over the past few days, another collaboration with betwixt 03md and megoodself. Hope it meets with approval, all comments and suggestions will be responded to and (hopefully) dealt with in double-quick time. Thanks for your time. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Oldelpaso (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~

- The thorny old Irish issue. I'm pretty sure it is incorrect to use the tricolor for the 19th Century. Also, in the first two entries the venue is listed as being Northern Ireland, with a link to the nation state, which didn't exist at the time. This bit ought to be solved easily enough - the rest of the list uses "Stadium, City", so putting Belfast would seem more appropriate. Likewise for the "Ulster" ones.
  - Fixed the locations. Possibly an obvious question, but what flags, if any, should be used for Ireland in the times you specified? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I've seen the St Patricks cross used, but whether this is truly correct or not I couldn't say for sure. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - (e/c!) I replaced the flags with the red diagonal cross flag, per the early Home Championship articles, I trust that's what you were after? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~The "professional" in "current professional players" seems redundant. I'm guessing it was put in specifically for Paul Scholes, but I'm not sure that's necessary.~~
  - We had a question on the talk page about this. There isn't really a concept (as far as I'm aware) of Current England players as they're selected on a game-by-game basis - Capello could select a completely different of players for the next match. All this code is trying to show is that these players still play and are still eligible for selection for England. Frankly, I'm not bothered about it and may remove it altogether as it's a simple note which is causing more grief than usefulness. Would removing it do any harm? I've removed it... ! The Rambling Man (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Perhaps there could be a note somewhere to say that the list doesn't include wartime internationals.~~ Oldelpaso (talk) 09:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Would that be because wartime internationals aren't considered full internationals by the FA? Otherwise hat-tricks scored in them should be listed... advice? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm not suggesting they be included, since as you say they aren't regarded as full internationals, but since not every reader will know that, I think its worth pointing it out under Notes. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Indeed, I've added a note at the top of the list. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Oldelpaso (talk) 17:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues from Jpeeling (talk · contribs)

Comments from Jpeeling (talk · contribs)

According to the EL Fred Dewhurst scored a HT but he isn't listed here, any reason?
- Oversight. Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Albert Allen's HT has a different date to the reference and EL.
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The tables lists Tommy Taylor's first HT against Denmark in the Home Nations Championship, put in writing I'm sure you can see there's an error :)
- Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lineker's 14 October 1987 HT was in European qualifying not World Cup.
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's probably just the Ireland 'situation', which I haven't got my head round, but some of the HTs either side of WW2 appear to contradict the accompanying reference. For example George Mills 1937 HT is listed as against Northern Ireland when the ref says just Ireland. Comparing the list with the EL the only difference in terms of teams is Willie Hall's 1938 HT which is down there as Northern Ireland. Some sources including Wikipedia say that 'fiver' was against Northern Ireland so can you check this.
- Checking. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Firstly, the Hall's hat-trick, I'll probably stick with the FA's interpretation of the opposition that day, i.e. Ireland. Wikipedia's article on Hall is poorly referenced. I suspect, as is the way these days, many of the sources quoting Northern Ireland are actually ripping Wikipedia. As for Ireland issues, I've stuck with the rest of Wikipedia convention and pre-1950 it's Ireland, with the historical flag. I will also remove the external link as it seems to be unreliable. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - That's nice to know, I used the EL to compare ;) --Jpeeling (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You say Michael Owen scored the previous HT to Walcott's but it was actually Crouch, so either add 'competitive' or switch wording to Crouch's less important HT. --Jpeeling (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Competitive added.
As always, much thanks. I'll do some more work on the "ireland" situation tomorrow when (and if) I wake up. Much tired. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

Camsell's Belgium HT is listed as the same venue as Dixie Dean's two years previous but the reference disagrees.
- Dudenparc-tastic, fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My English skills aren't top notch but should it be the Netherlands in the lead with regard Marco van Basten's HT, the picture of MVB does include 'the' in the caption. --Jpeeling (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Added The. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The England part of the FA website is down (at least on my computer) but it looks like Johnny Byrne's HT needs a different ref. Also on this HT the venue is 'Estádio Nacional, Lisbon' but other HTs at the ground have 'Estádio Nacional, Jamor', a consistent location would be better.
- Yes, the archive section of the FA website is currently down. I'll get onto the incorrectly titled reference as soon as I can. Location made consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the competition column there is '1984 European Championship qualifier' and 'Euro 2000 qualifier' should these by in a consistent format?
- Well since about the 1996 contest, it's commonly been referred to as Euro xxxx and beforehand it was the European Championship. I kept with the common names. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Fair enough. Off topic but should the Wikipedia articles for European Championships from 1968 to 1992 not be renamed to what you describe as there common names. I see they were all moved in Feb 2008 but I can't find a talk page or Wikiproject discussion. --Jpeeling (talk) 11:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Probably. It wouldn't be without controversy though so I suppose it should be proposed first, maybe at WP:FOOTBALL to see what the consensus is. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Should MvB's HT have finals added in the competition column. --Jpeeling (talk) 18:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes. Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:19, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some captions have the opposition country linked, some don't, Germany and Croatia are linked in the lead so that may cover those two but Jamaica at least needs a link.
- Jamaica now linked and, as you say, other countries are already linked.

--Jpeeling (talk) 11:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your detailed input. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the Dixie Dean and Stanley Matthews pictures are copyrighted, I'm not a image expert and you probably know better but I think you need to fill in a 'non-free media use rationale' if you believe the use passes the non-free content criteria. Or you could replace them with a couple of free images, if they're avaliable. --Jpeeling (talk) 21:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved all issues I could find, Support. --Jpeeling (talk) 09:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

"56 England footballers have scored three or more goals in a game, with a total of 79 hat-tricks between them." I think it should be explicitly mentioned that 3+ goals consitute a hat trick, i.e. "56 England footballers have scored three or more goals in a game (a "hat-trick"), with a total of 79 hat-tricks between them."
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The first players to score three or more goals for England " Once you use the word "hat-trick", do not go back to using the initial definition.
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image caption: "Geoff Hurst scored a hat-trick in the 1966 FIFA World Cup Final which England won 4–2." Comma after "Final".
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Jimmy Greaves has scored the greatest number of hat-tricks with six." Comma after "hat-tricks".
- Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Five players, Albert Allen, Frank Bradshaw, Walter Gilliat, John Veitch and John Yates have scored" Comma after "Yates".
- Not done. I don't use a serial comma after the last of a list. It's not mandatory and I prefer the probably more BritEng version. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - This is different. First of all, if I were asking for a serial comma, it would be after John Veitch. Second, commas are used to set off nonessential clauses, and this is one of them. You could use em/en dashes to do the same thing: "Five players—Albert Allen, Frank Bradshaw, Walter Gilliat, John Veitch and John Yates—have scored" Dabomb87 (talk) 17:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - That teaches me for trying to be a clever sod. Fixing. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Geoff Hurst scored a hat-trick in the 1966 FIFA World Cup Final which is generally considered one of the most famous hat-tricks of all time"-->In the 1966 FIFA World Cup Final, Geoff Hurst scored a hat trick, generally considered one of the most famous of all time.
- Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
More later... Dabomb87 (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good good... thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Richard Hofmann was the first player from outside the Home Nations to score a hat-trick against England. He scored three goals for Germany in a friendly match in May 1930. " I think that first period would be better suited as a semicolon.
- Sentences merged. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Bryan Robson scored a solitary hat-trick in an 8–0 victory against Turkey in 1984." Do we need "solitary"?
- No, gone. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The sorting of the "Competition" column... I would have expected it to sort alphabetically first, and then chronologically when the types of match were the same. For example, I think Euro 2000 should come before FIFA World Cup.
- Sorting sorted I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if the external link is directly relevant to this article. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Okay, gone. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Spell out UEFA in the publisher (ref 6)~~
- Have it your way.... gone. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Ref 7, soccer-europe.com should be the publisher, and what makes this a reliable source?~~
- Source was unnecessary, so it's gone. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Ref 51, is the "U" in "FUlham" supposed to be capitalized?~~ Dabomb87 (talk) 21:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, sure it was. Not really. Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

An article on the 1966 FIFA World Cup Final exists, in case you want to link to it. There's also one for the 1988 Euro final. Purely optional, though.
- 1966 World Cup final is already linked in the lead, and the hat-trick in 1988 wasn't in the final, it was in the Finals, which is also already linked in the lead, per 1988 UEFA European Football Championship.
The license for File:GOSmith.jpg is shaky. It's doubtful the author died more than 100 years ago.
- Fair point. I'll remove it. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is it possible to include a page number for reference 70? Not a big deal, but it would be nice for easy verification.
- Actually, that reference was inherited when I picked the list up. As you can see from the table, each hat-trick scorer is individually referenced so by deduction you can see the first five were from Scotland, so I'll remove the link altogether.

Giants2008 (17–14) 00:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for your comments Giants2008. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{FLC}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.