Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Commissioner's Historic Achievement Award/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Geraldk 20:29, 21 October 2009 [1].

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Commissioner's Historic Achievement Award

Nominator(s): KV5 (Talk • Phils) 12:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Featured list candidates/Commissioner's Historic Achievement Award/archive1

I am nominating this for featured list because after its recent expansion, it meets all of the criteria. I know that there is no lead image; I have not found a picture of the trophy itself, which would be appropriate, and do not want to highlight one winner more than another by adding a second picture in addition to the ones already in the table. Mark McGwire doesn't have an image, so he's currently the only recipient without one. All concerns to be addressed as quickly and efficiently as possible. Cheers! KV5 (Talk • Phils) 12:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comments Support Looks great! Small thing, shouldn't the default order of the table be by the presentation year? Staxringold _talk^contribs 16:44, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Traditionally, it's sorted by the first column, which in this case is the name. I chose that way because the presentation isn't time-dependent (it's not an annual award, a monthly award, etc.). Since the table is sortable, it's really easy to do either one quite quickly. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Meh, your reasoning makes sense, it really isn't a year-by-year award so I guess that sorting wouldn't make as much sense. I'll give this a better going-over later, looks good though. Mind looking at Major League Baseball Comeback Player of the Year Award and letting me know what you think of the formatting (on my talk page, this isn't the place. :) ). Thanks! Staxringold _talk^contribs 17:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support Looks good. I'm okay with ordering it by name, as it's not a yearly award. I find it odd WP doesn't have a fair use picture of McGwire though. I'll also check out the Comeback POY page, and just so you know, I just finished DHL Delivery Man Award and nominated it for FLC. --Muboshgu (talk) 17:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Try to get this image released as cc-by-sa or cc-by
   • A better picture of the award is shown in one of the references. I don't believe that the time and effort that is involved in trying to get an unwilling photographer to release their work to the world is necessary for a picture that's low quality and doesn't truly show the award. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 14:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
     • I contacted the author and got the image released as cc-by-sa. Please upload http://www.flickr.com/photos/allthegoodnamesweretaken/744407380/ to commons and add it to the list.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:28, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
       • What does it add? This picture isn't of any encyclopedic value to this list because of the coloration; the whole photo is underexposed. I don't even know if I can make anything of it with Photoshop. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:47, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
       • I'm still not sold on the encyclopedic value, but I think I've managed to do at least something with it, though I think finding an image of Mark McGwire would be more beneficial to this list. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 12:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
2. Arrange according to year and not name, I know it's not a yearly award, still arranging according to year makes more sense, because the award is presented chronologically to recent achievements of the persons. Arranging according to name isn't, imo, beneficial at all. Please make the first column the year and arrange according to it. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 06:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
   • I've expressed my views on this above. In addition to the reasons I gave, there is no way to get this in true chronological order because, in some cases, it's not known on what date the trophy was presented. That means that sorting by year initially is impractical because it could be flat wrong on the chronological order. The functionality is provided, but it's better to be safe than to inadvertently put factual errors in featured content. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 14:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
3. Expand the info about the trophy, its value, size, designer ...etc.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 06:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
   • Obviously I've written lists about trophies and awards before. Obviously, that's information I've looked for. Besides the fact that it's designed by Tiffany, which I've included, the info is unavailable. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 14:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
     • I don't see why that should be obvious at all. I don't know your history of contribution and even if I did it's a simple suggestion that needs an answer. A simple "The info isn't available" would suffice.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment – "2001 saw the most awards presented in a year: Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn". What comes after the colon presents a sharp break from the rest of the sentence; I would rather see a number after it. This would also make it clearer that there were more winners than 1998. Also, try not to start the sentence with a year. The rest looks pretty clean. Giants2008 (17–14) 19:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I think I got it all in one fell swoop. Let me know what you think of the new wording. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Support – That did the trick. As I said above, the rest was already clean. Giants2008 (17–14) 19:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) "The award consists of a trophy manufactured by Tiffany & Co.:[2] a gold baseball sitting atop a silver trophy base." "The award consists of a trophy" just sounds strange. Why not just "The award is a trophy..."? I actually think "The award is a trophy" sounds strange. Might just be a difference of opinion in prose. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "first to be presented with the award for " Wordy, could be "first to receive the award" I don't consider it to be so, but done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "The first awards were presented during the 1998 season, to McGwire and Sosa. " This was already mentioned in the first paragraph. Reworded. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "for the majority of his career" Could be "for most of his career" unless you want to stress "more than 50%". Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "The award was given in each year from 2004 until 2007: Roger Clemens was honored during the 2004 All-Star Game, and Ichiro Suzuki was presented with the award for breaking the single-season hits record in 2005." Seems strange to mention these two but not those who won in 2006–08. Did. The award wasn't presented in '08, but the '06 and '07 winners are mentioned in the first para. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "Ripken broke one of baseball's "unbreakable" records by playing" Did I miss something here? KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) Oops, sorry. I didn't mean to post this sentence. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC) Seems strange that the list is sorted in alpha order, especially when all the other awards lists are in chronological order. (I saw the discussion above, but just my opinion) You might consider centering the year column. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) I don't think that "scholarship" is a high-value link. I linked it based on the context, but removed since you disagree. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "Another achievement that shattered a record many thought unbreakable" This will sound strange if the reader sorts Ichiro Suzuki before Cal Ripken, Jr. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) You might change "Awardee" to "Awardee(s)", since the Mariners consists of multiple players. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC) Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC) "McGwire's name is indelibly linked with that of fellow 1998 award winner Sammy Sosa for their part in the Major League Baseball home run record chase of that season." "indelibly linked" just sounds like journalistic puffery. I thought it was pretty nice prose myself. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 00:47, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Small comment Could the lead sentence on Barry Bonds be reworded? "Barry Bonds became the third player honored with the award for breaking the single-season home run record in 2002" sounds like he broke the record in 02, not that he received the award then. Maybe something like "Barry Bonds (2002) became the third player honored" or "Barry Bonds was presented with the award in 2002, the third player honored..." Staxringold _talk^contribs 15:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

• Done and done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments "Tiffany & Co.:[2] " the 'period' followed by the colon followed by the ref looks odd. I'd be happier if you could rephrase this to avoid the double punc+ref issue. Have tried to do so. See if the current wording is better. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Why is the most recent recipient two years ago? Is this award now defunct? Perhaps you need some intro notes that explain that this award isn't annual and that it could be awarded only once in a while. Comment added. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Worth noting in the lead (briefly) why Robinson was awarded. You say she's the first woman and first non-player but don't say why she won it. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Not sure we should be using words like "star" - a bit journalistic. I can find references for it if you like; Alex Rodriguez was all the Mariners really had before that season. He was their superstar, their cornerstone, and no one expected anything like that from Seattle after he was traded away. Perhaps "Awardee" is standard US-English, I'd usually expect "recipient(s)". "Awardee" is certainly standard to my ears, but I can change it if you'd like. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) "is indelibly linked" journalistic or OR or POV unless you quote it. Removed "indelibly". KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC) "spotlighted the National League Central division" what do you mean here? I meant put the NL Central in the spolight; I suppose it was an awkward choice of phrasing. Changed. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) "three 60-home-run seasons (1999, 2001)." I know this is okay but "three... seasons" followed by two years is odd. Added. "unbreakable" doesn't appear in either of your references. Do you mean for Ichiro or Ripken? KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Both have refs now, with quotes. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 21:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC) " traded star shortstop" star again. "In shattering a record many thought unbreakable,..." journalism. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC) As per my comments above, references were provided for both "unbreakable" (with quotes). Was waiting for a response on "star".KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:47, 17 October 2009 (UTC) If they're direct quotes then they should be in quotations. And it wasn't "unbreakable" that particularly bothered me, "shattering" is journalistic. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC) I get the feeling we're going back to robot lists here. Just because we don't have a "brilliant" prose requirement here is no reason to only use "breaking" for a record. Other verbs and adjectives exist. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Going back to a neutral and encyclopedic tone you mean? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:54, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Fine. Your prose is acceptable, mine is not. I'll change it. Things like this is part of the reasons I'm leaving the project after these noms are completed. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Not at all. I suggested your prose was not neutral in tone nor particularly encyclopedic. That's all. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Fine. Done. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 17:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Geraldk (talk) 20:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.