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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 8:51, 5 October 2024 (UTC) [1].

Minneapolis

[edit]

Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notice 2023-01-28

I am the nominator of the 2007 Minneapolis FAC and have been working to bring it to current FA standards since at least 2020 through several talk page archives, with SandyGeorgia looking in. I believe it is at today's FA standard, and ready for review at FAR. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never did finish my pre-FAR review on article talk; will try to get back to that by leaving comments here this weekend. Hog Farm Talk 00:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't forgotten about this; I've just been much busier than expected this week. Hog Farm Talk 18:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I need to give the new Turnpike album a second listen anyways, so might as well start going through this tonight. Saving the lead for last ...

  • I know that newer style of interactive map has its benefits, but is there any way to also show the reader at a glance where Minneapolis is located in the country, rather than making them get into the interactive map, fiddle with the zoom system which is kinda balky on mobile, and then try to figure out that information?
Yes. I guess WikiProject Maps added the interactive maps recently. I placed an old style pushpin map under theirs. Is this OK?
  • "The US Army Corps of Engineers built a concrete dike that held in 1876" - needs rephrased somehow. Current phrasing implies that there was some sort of particulalry important holding that happened in 1876
Restored an old version with more details, thank you. It took the Corps of Engineers 6 years or more to stop the Eastman Tunnel leak.
  • So do the sources indicate why exactly the milling and logging declined? From what I can tell the milling seems to have taken over about the time the logging went down, but it's not obvious from a quick skim of sources if the milling directly supplanted the lumber, or if the local forests had been extirpated, or something else altogether
Excellent point. I added a sentence in two places, demarcating the demise of lumbering and flour milling. Does it make better sense now?
  • "With the Fuji-Ya restaurant leading the way on the west bank," - is this a particularly important detail to note? I had noticed when I was doing my informal review on the talk page several months again that the article had a tendency to make unnecessary name drops
Not absolutely necessary and has been removed.
  • Susan, I'd like to hear your and Sandy's thoughts on this, but I have some tone concerns here. Stuff like "formidable Institute of Technology", "in the end, to the nation and the globe", and others.
My shorthand, and no problem to omit.
  • The Institute of Technology was indispensible, which the source suggests, but was perhaps overrepresented (say, in comparison to other institutions) by the word "formidable" (we had that discussion before about "fabulous" which I removed).
  • Again a shorthand way of saying "nationally and internationally", opting for shorter words. Omitted.
  • " and supplied about half the electrical needs of the US military during World War II" - the sources actually says "during World War II the firm produced nearly half of all the electric plants used by the American military during the conflict". There is an important distinction between "electrical needs" which implies all electricity usage, and then producing half of all generators, which doesn't really equate to half of electricity usage
Good catch, Hog Farm. Reworded that sentence to reflect the sources, and say more precisely, "and supplied about half the generator sets the US military used during World War II."

Stopping here for now. Hog Farm Talk 03:19, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think either of those examples of tone are necessary, and they should be omitted unless the source specifically supports them, in which case they should be quoted and attributed. Thanks for reviewing, HF; it's been several months since I last took a deep dive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Hog Farm. I was looking forward to your comments and they didn't disappoint. Everything done as indicated inline above, with one exception. Looking for an alternate way to say "nation and the globe." -SusanLesch (talk) 23:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I'm embarrassed to say the phrase is a too-close paraphrase of William Lass. Much better to omit it. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question. I found a few more adjectives (extraordinary, extraordinary, diverse). Are you all recommending they be omitted?
  • "The truck drivers union executed strikes with extraordinary "military precision"". I read Walker's book and it was astonishing but may be better unsaid.
  • Ditto for the post-Floyd, "The local insurgency resulted in extraordinary levels of property damage in Minneapolis".
  • Ditto for "the park board owns the city's canopy of trees,[389] and nearly all land that borders the city's diverse waterfronts."

-SusanLesch (talk) 22:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On those three: my thoughts would be to attribute use to attribute the "military precision" quote to the author and then leave off the extraordinary if the source doesn't use that language, the damage would be best to attribute to the author, and I'd recommend ommitting "diverse" in the waterfronts example. Hog Farm Talk 23:21, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thank you, Hog Farm. Hope I'm learning to identify some of the "tone" problems you point out. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another. In the lead, "—the only natural waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River." Maybe shorten to, "the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River"? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that one is fine, unless you really want to trim down the article word count. I haven't forgotten about this review; I just haven't had time - June through August/September is just probably going to be a hectic time for me at work most years now. Hog Farm Talk 04:59, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, good, we'll keep it. No worries, I'll hold on until you are free again. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 15:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Resuming - I'm skipping the structural racism section for now as that is probably going to be the trickiest section to write and review and I'm simply too tired for that now.

So you know, that section is fairly tightly written and has been through WP:RSN.
"Sources disagree on the exact location and elevation of the city's highest point, which is cited as being between 965 and 985 feet (294 and 300 m) above sea level" - is Soper's 1915 figure really relevant anymore? The city has grown so much in the last 108 years that it's not surprising at all that more recent sources give a higher peak as the city expands
There's no reason to doubt Soper, the academic. Soper's estimate was 2 feet less ("965 feet, or thereabouts") than John Carman gave in 1975. And his location, identified by placenames that still exist, is loosely the same as contemporary sources. However, you have a good point. We can simplify the article by removing one old journal paper. So now we begin the disagreement in 1975 instead of 1915.
"Shaffer, Scott (February 7, 2018). "Low-density Zoning Threatens Neighborhood Character". Streets.mn. Retrieved March 13, 2023." - community blog, I don't know that this meets the high-quality RS bar for featured articles
Streets.mn was checked out at WP:RSN. So were several other sources, archived here. Everything passed (except one that had no comment) for noncontroversial use here. We only use it to define the term "non-conforming".
Would it be worthwhile to provide a sentence or two about the history of neighborhood development in Minneapolis? Right now the section is heavily weighted towards the zonining issue and a brief overview of neighborhood development would provide balance
For now, I resurrected the Neighborhood Revitalization Program that ran from 1991 to 2011, for which I have a book source. Brought this up to date with a combination of sources.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will continue, hopefully soon. Hog Farm Talk 16:27, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The least-snowiest winter was 1890–91, when 11.1 inches (28 cm) fell" - cited source is [2] which doesn't seem to support this at all
Topic is over my pay grade. Inquired at WikiProject Weather.
Comment. The National Weather Service can't give me a URL. I submitted a data request to the Midwest regional office but the answer was they don't have a URL. So we're using Minnesota state DNR records which are up to date.
  • "who claim no religion[255] but among whom one third nationally tend to think a God exists." - I don't know that it's necessary to define that non-religious people claim no religion
Agreed. Removed that and combined two paras. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Minneapolis became the first major American city to allow broadcasting the Muslim call to prayer" - recommend rephrasing. This implies that there is a general ban on the call to prayer itself in its entirety, but the source indicates that Minnesapolis was actually the first to allow all five daily calls (for noise ordinance reasons), rather than the first to allow it at all. It surprises me a bit that this was considered a noise ordinance issue; I lived for awhile in a small town that sounded the danged emergency siren on the hour for every single daylight hour
I found a history (probably not an admissable source) and you are correct. Reworded, and cut the "major city" stuff. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:07, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " it is the only exchange as of 2023 for hard red spring wheat futures and options" - recommend dropping the reference to options as the source is only really calling out that it's the only source for hard red spring wheat futures
The source mentions options on futures, but not specific to Minneapolis. Cut, thank you.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC) Ready for arts and culture, apologies this is taking so long. Hog Farm Talk 00:03, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The center expanded in 2005 with an addition by Herzog & de Meuron.[283]" - I'd cut this sentence; this is more relevant to the Center article than to the overall article on Minneapolis from the more high-level view we need to take with articles on major cities like this. I have similar thoughts to the extensive description of the enlargements to the Mia. The idea is to give a general overview of the topic of Arts in Minneapolis, and I don't know that a blow-by-blow description of building renovations is necessarily part of a general overview of that topic.
Extra architects cut for both the Walker and Mia, thanks.
  • "helped make First Avenue and the 7th Street Entry the heart of American popular music" - "the heart of American popular music" is quite a strong statement to be made in Wikipedia's voice, I'd recommend using some form of direct attribution to a source here
Good thinking. Removed the footnote, refocused the statement, and attributed to Pitchfork, a reliable source per WP:RSMUSIC.
  • I'm unsure of mentioning apparently non-notable concert venues by name. Theoretically any bar with a stage could be considered a concert venue, and we should only really be hitting the highlights here
Removed venues that don't have Wikipedia articles.
  • "After refugees explained the old name was a reminder of their most dreadful days, the American Refugee Committee changed its name to Alight. Alight helps millions of refugees in Africa and Asia with water, shelter, and economic support" - this needs significant work. The connection to Minneapolis is not at any point stated, and the discussion about the name change is not relevant to the city of Minneapolis. I'm sure the organization does good work, but this isn't the place to elaborate too much on a single organization.
Agreed, better to reduce the elaboration. Leave the name change to the Alight article.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:47, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ready for the historical museums section, also pinging in SandyGeorgia for another opinion on these points. Hog Farm Talk 01:03, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not in disagreement on any point you've raised so far. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Minneapolis hosts the world's only Somali history museum as of 2021" - The Somali government re-opened its national museum in 2020, and our article on the Somali Museum of Minnesota indicates that it's only possible its the only Somali history museum in the world. This seems to be an awfully strong claim to support with only a website seeking to highlight Minnesota tourism opportunities
Yes. Used a better source and trimmed that claim away.
  • "In 2016, following the killings of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, Lynx captains wore black shirts as a protest by Black athletes for social change.[370]" - I'd argue that this belongs more in the article for the Lynx
Took it out.
  • "enabled Horace Cleveland to create his finest landscape architecture," - finest should be attributed to the specific author unless you can find a source indicating that this is a consensus view
Rewrote intro. At first attribution stood out like a sore thumb, but now it's better.
  • "Ruhe stopped the state from building a highway through Minnehaha Park, a conflict that the park board appealed to and won in the US Supreme Court. During Ruhe's tenure, the board learned to accommodate growing public participation, and it became an environmental steward when faced with Dutch elm disease and improving water quality.." - is this from those pages in Smith?
Yes. It's a summary not a quote.
  • "In 2022, 500 participants[386] ages 14 to 24 served as Teen Teamworks recruits for on-the-job training in green careers[387] or as future park employees.[388] " - I don't know that this is actually relevant to include; it's not unusual at all for cities to involve teen park workers in things
I was impressed by the numbers during a pandemic, and reluctantly removed.
I'm not going to be dogmatic about having this removed, if you feel strongly it can be re-added. Hog Farm Talk 01:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. In my latest rewrite, this brings a short historical intro up to the present, so I added it back in.

I'm open to discussing any of these as they could well be controversial; ready for the government section coming up next. Hog Farm Talk 20:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Saving my powder for the Media section, the only place I anticipate pushing back. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:58, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hog Farm have you been through Parks and recreation yet? I don't understand this edit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:56, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I had reviewed that section before that edit and had no objections to the sentence in question; the disputed sentence seems like a reasonable attribution of a subject matter expert to me. Hog Farm Talk 03:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is my impression as well; I don't understand the edit summary about a "non-notable book" when it's a notable author, and relevant information. I suggest the content be reinstated; the content is not UNDUE and there are plenty of sources speaking to status of Parks in Minneapolis. We may be excluding rankings from the article, but we know nonetheless where Minneapolis stands on its system of parks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Added. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Volunteer missionaries,[439] the Pond brothers got permission at Fort Snelling to teach new farming techniques and a new religion to Chief Cloud Man and his community on the east shore of Bde Maka Ska.[254]" - the first question is when this was occurring, and the who gave them permission is unclear as well. Is this from the Dakota, the US Army at Fort Snelling, or the territorial government?
Clarified. Permission was granted by the Indian agent at Fort Snelling (that's the US government). Added citation and year.
  • "divided between community and magnet" - is it worth linking magnet school here?
Good idea, done.
  • "Some of the magazines published in the city are [...] Artful Living" - we shouldn't be sourcing this to the magazine's own "advertise with us" page
Changed to a third party site. It's only a directory listing but is likely better.
  • I also don't know that we should be listing the magazines for which we don't have an independent source noting its existence; I've found that independent RS sourcing is usually a good test as to if mentioning something is due weight or not
Can of worms. I like your idea of RS sourcing but lacking that in general this section has become self-sourced which I know is a red flag for Sandy. I have been through this list for Media now maybe four times and am nearly burned out trying to defend every title. Past discussions were with SandyGeorgia and Hog Farm. I tried asking WikiProject Minnesota to try to track down the now-defunct Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association (which had 95 members in 2007). Some of these passed WP:RSN where Banks Irk said "There are a lot of these community-based local news organizations that are basically replacing local newspapers." Wikipedia depends so much on these periodicals I cannot bear to cut them. Next to go would be Architecture Minnesota but who are we to choose winners and losers?
  • Removed Restaurant Franchise Monitor, The Tower, and in newspapers, Dispatch.
  • "about five bus rapid transit (BRT) lines" - cited source lists 6?
Changed to "about six". Considered saying "several" because at least two more are under construction.
  • "Racially discriminatory federal housing policies starting in the 1930s "prevented access to mortgages in areas with Jews, African-Americans and other minorities", and "left a lasting effect on the physical characteristics of the city and the financial well-being of its residents."" - extensive quote should be attributed inline
Source identified inline.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've now skimmed through pretty much the whole article except for the lead, although chunks of it only rather light skimming because I am rather worn out. Once this last batch reaches resolution and I've gone through the lead, I would prefer to have a fresh and more energetic set of eyes look over it before I take a fuller pass through the article. Hog Farm Talk 01:25, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States" - this feels like something that should be mentioned in the body
Added to Census and estimates.
  • Several of the nicknames/motto provided in the lead are not sourced there or anywhere else and should be sourced
You're right. Everything has a source now.
  • "and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout." - ideally we should be sourcing this major claim to something better than a commission apparently run by the city to show how great the city is
Agreed. The citation is only there because of the sockpuppet farm that plays with our lead.
  • Because this is covered in Economy, omitted the citation altogether.
  • "The city's reputation for high quality of life notwithstanding," - I'm not seeing this general claim made directly in the body; for a statement as strong as this it should be worked into the body of the article and not just the lead
Since rankings were discouraged by RfC in 2021, it is tough to quantify "quality of life". For the metro area and sometimes by city, the state had a good source.
  • File:Log Drivers-by Michael Nowack-1881.jpg - Buidhe can explain this better than me but the licensing isn't as straightforward as it would seem here. The image may be from 1881, but we'd need proof of when it was first published because theoretically it could still be under copyright (the 1928 tag requires publishing by then). See Hirtle chart on Commons; I've had a painting from the 1860s rejected at a FAC or A-class image review before
Answered below to Buidhe.
  • File:Lake Calhoun MN.jpg - not sure on this one. The licensing claims that the copyright holder has released it, but the uploader to wikipedia doesn't seem to be the copyright holder and the file page indicates in multiple places that it would be copyright Larry Kanfer photography 2003. The original source link appears to be gone forever, so it may be better simply to replace this with another image of the lake. File:Minneapolis Skyline (234868322).jpg maybe?
OK. Unfortunately Internet Archive only captured the source after that long-standing photo was gone. I am happy to replace it.
  • Picked a scenic one because this is the Geography section. Turned out beautiful, Hog Farm, thank you.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look back later, but this is it from me for now. Hog Farm Talk 23:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on when the 1881 photograph was published it could still be under copyright.
The Minnesota Historical Society (MNHS) claims its website would be done last summer. I called them a few months ago and there is no recourse except to wait for them. ("Access to Collections online is temporarily unavailable for remote and in-person researchers.") We know that Michael Nowack, the photographer, published something in 1881 that MNHS states is public domain. I can't speak for the log drivers.
  • Removed until MNHS comes back online.
Another issue I've noticed in excessively long sections such as "Lumber, waterpower, and flour milling" and single sentence paragraph in the demography section. (t · c) buidhe 00:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. That single sentence was to differentiate between people from India who appeared in close proximity to American Indian reservations. Turns out that fixing chrono order was what we needed.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Could you recheck the what the source said on "In 1871, of the thirteen mills sawing lumber in St. Anthony, eight ran on water power and five ran on steam turbines" I believe that the steam turbine was not invented until 1884 and didn't come into real use until the 1900's. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Surely. From page 146 of Agnes Larson's The White Pine Industry in Minnesota, A History: In 1871 thirteen mills were cutting lumber at St. Anthony Falls, giving employment to 831 people. Of those thirteen mills, eight were run by water power and five by steam turbine. The author mentions a "first-class" steam powered sawmill owned by Hersey, Staples and Company in Stillwater, Minnesota built in 1854 (page 17). Around there she writes, "Steam was beginning to come into its own." Her source is a book I've never seen: Hotchkiss, History of Lumber and Forest Industry of Northwest, p. 525, that is unfortunately not in the Internet Archive as far as I can see. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
HathiTrust has a copy here. It appears Wikipedia's article on steam turbines needs updating, no? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC) P.S. I double-checked another book The Falls of Saint Anthony by Lucile Kane. She says on page 108 that Another factor which contributed to the decline of sawmilling at the falls was steam power. As early as the 1850s and 1860s seven steam mills had operated at different times in the falls district. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My guess is that the author made an error and should have said steam power or steam engines rather than steam turbines. I.E steam engines / steam power was prevalent then, steam turbines were still in future. But if the source said it, that's good enough from a Wikipedia standpoint. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed the article to say "steam power". Thank you.

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SG Review

As the article is getting close to Keep territory, it may be helpful to scrutinize the lead more closely. Does it truly summarize the high points? At WP:TFA, would the lead provide the material that would be highlighted in a blurb? Examples I suggest addressing

As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the largest city in Minnesota and the 46th-most-populous in the United States.
Too much detail for the lead, and not really worthy of being the second line in the lead. I suggest removing the 46-th most bit to the body, and only mentioning in the lead "With a 2020 population of 429,954, it is the largest city in Minnesota."
Extra detail removed. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first paragraph is tangled with nine mentions of Minneapolis and Minnesota; I suggest that Dying might find a way to smooth this out.
Hi. The lead was constructed for the most part here and here by a sockpuppet farm. I threw up my hands some time ago but am happy to help if I can. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Minneapolis has its origins as the 19th century lumber and flour milling capitals of the world, and, to the present day, preserved its financial clout -->
Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world and has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century.
Fixed.
waterfall on the entire length of the Mississippi River --> on the Mississippi River
Fixed.
on a section of land north of Fort Snelling.
Fixed.
Its growth is attributed. --> its growth was ? In the 19th century ?? Early growth was ??
Fixed.
metropolis located far from competing neighbors,[15] Minneapolis is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, and the Target Corporation. ... No relationship between these two clauses
Fixed.

Part done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hope Dying, well-versed in fine-tuning leads towards writing the TFA blurb, will have a look and lend a hand. I think the lead could be much better. First pass only, will continue, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll continue my review on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:08, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

dying

thanks for the ping and praise, SandyGeorgia! SusanLesch, this will admittedly be the first time i contribute to either fac or far, so please let me know if there is anything i am doing incorrectly or if you have any suggestions for improvement.
Greetings, Dying! Excited to work with you.

offhand, three things about this lead jump out at me.

  • a decent number of statements appear to have been made as if minneapolis has something to prove. i think, to a neutral reader, this makes the city less impressive than it really is.
Wonderful comment (in line with some of Hog Farm's ideas and SandyGeorgia's work to eradicate false claims). Maybe you can help tone it down.
  • the lead seems to be a lot longer than those of comparable articles. because minneapolis is 46th on the list of u.s. cities by population, i also specifically looked at the articles for oakland (45th) and tulsa (47th), and both of them have leads that are roughly 20–30% shorter, even though they have longer article bodies.
Maybe four paragraphs should do it per WP:LEAD. You're right we've gone over. One point, I would try to compare cities that are featured articles (Wikipedia doesn't have many). Boston, Cleveland, Washington, DC, Ann Arbor, Michigan (although I don't know which ones are recent FAs). Our guidelines at WP:USCITIES has more info.
  • considering that minneapolis has recently been highly prominent in world news due to an incident that sparked a worldwide protest movement, it seems strange that this only seems to be referenced obliquely in the lead. (full disclosure: i started a few of the articles related to the protests.) for comparison, the article leads for the cities of wuhan, beirut, and mariupol all not only explicitly mention the unfortunate events that have recently brought them international attention, but also provide links to articles that cover the events in further depth.
I agree with you but sadly lost an RfC on the subject.

would you prefer to address these points before i perform a more in-depth copyedit? dying (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hope that's enough to start. Good to meet you, Dying. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest Cleveland is the better example for comparison for the direction of the lead; it's a continuously maintained FA, and I'm uncomfortable with the idea of using non-FAs for guidance. SusanLesch are you comfortable then with having dying work directly on the lead? I see good room for reduction in the third paragraph and fifth (current city appointments are also recentism). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:22, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, indeed. -15:01, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
Grand; dying, one way to make work at FAR easier on other reviewers and the Coords who have to close is to start a sub-section on the talk page of this FAR, as you can see I've done. Then, when you're done, you can summarize back to this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working on SandyGeorgia's review on talk in my sandbox. Making progress every day. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SandyGeorgia and Dying: Done with SandyGeorgia's review. A couple questions and a note are marked. Dying, you could do our lead now if you can find the time. Sandy said she's busy elsewhere until at least Friday. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Will get on it this weekend. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies. I have to be out tomorrow early and need a day or two to complete an item I had thought was done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Section done. Dying do you have a plan to go ahead with this lead? -SusanLesch (talk) 21:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
sorry for the delay, SusanLesch! unfortunately, another incident on wikipedia took up a good deal of my time recently. i have been working on the lead intermittently, but recently realized that it might be easier to start with the draft of a tfa blurb and then work backwards. i should post something on the talk page within a day or two. dying (talk) 22:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my! Interruptions in hardware (and email) are the worst. When your stress level recovers, yes, please have at the lead. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RE: Climate -- the new growing zone map (https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/) has the entire city and much of the surrounding suburbs in zone 5a now. Can someone make this change?

Done. Thank you, Sanctacruce21. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:09, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria, my understanding is that Hog Farm and SandyGeorgia's reviews are done (both were lengthy, detailed reviews). Dying had a machine failure so the lead remains about the same, but they were able to write a TFA blurb (on talk). I made a couple more improvements to the article and ran IABot last week. Generally we had no status change since November. A couple questions are outstanding on Sandy's review (on talk). Is anyone available to !vote keep? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:42, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll take a look but have no idea when I can get to it. I just moved last weekend; I'm not sure which box my primary laptop is in and we don't have reliable internet access set up yet. Hog Farm Talk 16:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am working our polls for the presidential primary in the next two weeks and turn into a pumpkin tomorrow until March 7. In the meantime I tried to recruit a weather expert at the WikiProject. (Outdated climate data seems to be a hurdle with lots of old FAs.) -SusanLesch (talk) 19:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing, again apologies for the dely
" renamed it the Falls of St. Anthony of Padua for his patron saint" - was this literally named "Falls of St. Anthony of Padua" as the text suggests or should this just be "Falls of St. Anthony" using a piped link for St. Anthony?
"After closing in 1858, the University of Minnesota was revived using land taken from the Dakota people under the Morrill Land-Grant Acts in 1862" - this seems more relevant to an article on either the University of MN or to some other article than one about the City of Minneapolis
  • Hog Farm, I don't understand. Why remove this? The main campus of the U of MN is in Minneapolis (as the lead says). It's enormous and contributes to the local economy. I found this morning: The university owns 30% of the city's publicly-owned land (about 84 acres) that is zoned for industrial uses (page 34). -SusanLesch (talk) 15:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These are the only major concerns I had with the early history material as rewritten. Hog Farm Talk 23:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update to anyone worried about the climate box, I updated the data so it goes back to 1873, with a note explaining where the weather station is. I also removed some unnecessary parts of the table that aren't accessible in the NOWData source. Thanks SusanLesch (talk · contribs) for reaching out to the weather WikiProject. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:33, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beautiful, elegant job. Thank you so much, Hurricanehink. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worked out on Minneapolis talk page. I was mistaken that 2020 climate normals are outdated. Next update will be 2030. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dying and all, I wrote a new lead for discussion on the Minneapolis talk page. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead is done. My understanding is that's the last step of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Z1720

[edit]

Comments after a quick skim:

  • "Minneapolis has cold, snowy winters and hot, humid summers, as is typical in a continental climate. The difference between average temperatures in the coldest winter month and the warmest summer month is 58.1 °F (32.3 °C)." Needs a citation, especially for the first half of this sentence.
Good catch. I asked for help in WikiProject Weather.
  • I don't think the charity section is needed: the first paragraph can be merged into another section if it is to be kept, but the sentence about Alight seems promotional for the charity and I'm unsure why this is highlighted when there are probably several other charities in the Minneapolis area.
Removed, although I don't know of any other Minneapolis charity of Alight's proportions.
  • I think the "Annual events" section can be redistributed to other sections. For example, the information about the marathon can be in the sports section, and the Fringe Festival can be in the Arts section.
I did this reluctantly because WP:USCITIES recommends a separate section for recurring events. I removed the section, and as you suggest, distributed the most important six or so, and omitted about ten. It looks all right.
  • "Krista Tippett, awarded a Peabody and the National Humanities Medal, produced the On Being project from her Minneapolis studio." This feels like trivia and should either be expanded upon, incorporated somewhere else, or removed.
Removed.
  • I suggest reworking the "Transportation" section as there are lots of short paragraphs at the end.
Done.
  • The George Floyd information seems bloated and off-topic for the "Government" section. I suggest that much of this information be moved to "History" and trimmed.
Because oversight of both consent decrees was approved in February, I was able to cut a whole paragraph. Sorry I must push back on your comments. Mr. Floyd is not off topic, nor does it all belong in History. His death profoundly affected the police force for at least the last four years and it will in the coming four to ten years.
I think Floyd is a significant event that needs to be mentioned in this article. When I skimmed through the article I saw the multiple paragraphs on this subject in the Government section and gave it a thorough read, which is what I used to base my opinion on. There was a lot of information in this section about police reform, which surprised me because usually government sections for cities concern the structure of their municipal government, who their elected representatives are, and significant changes to these structures. While the operation of the police could be part of this section, I am unsure if it should have the amount of space that it does in this section.
Furthermore, Floyd is a significant event in this city's history, but the city's history is hundreds or thousands of years old, and I'm concerned that there might be a recency bias to include this much information on the topic in this area of the article. Los Angeles has one sentence about Rodney King, though it probably needs to be expanded. New York City has a couple of sentences, mostly in its history section, about 9/11 and its aftereffects. As of posting this comment, this article has two significant paragraphs about Floyd: one in the history section and one in government. Considering the length of the article, I would ask that editors consider if that information would be better on daughter articles and if it can be summarised even more in this article. Z1720 (talk) 23:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. We have only one sentence about Mr. Floyd in Government, followed by crime statistics and the consent decree.
  • "The Indigenous Dakota people believed in the Great Spirit, and were surprised that not all European settlers were religious." This feels like trivia and I think it can be removed.
Removed.
  • This is a long article. While this is to be expected with an article about a city, I think work can be done to reduce the number of words by moving information to other locations and removing promotional language throughout. I suggest that a subject-matter expert do a readthrough to see what can be moved.
Good idea. Asked editors in WikiProject Minnesota.
  • I added alt text to some of the images.
Thank you.

Those are my comments. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Those are my thoughts. Z1720 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Z1720, thank you very much for your review. Every point you raised is attended to above, with the exception of the two weather citations that I deferred to the WikiProject. You were right, the Floyd paragraph in History has been trimmed. Waiting for help, I made about 6K of article cuts but stopped after this one hurt. It might have done damage (by omitting hydroelectricity and revitalization of the riverfront).
Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cutting prose is tough but I think it's for the best, as it helps with load times and makes it more likely that the article will be read by our readers. I hope you will consider moving this information to a daughter article so that the sources are not lost, especially information in the history section. Are you ready for me to take another skim through the article? Z1720 (talk) 20:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please. I'll move that chunk to History of Minneapolis. Thank you again. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taking a closer read, so this will take more time. I am performing a copyedit while I go, so feel free to revert and discuss below anything I change.
  • " After closing in 1858, the University of Minnesota was revived using land taken from the Dakota people under the Morrill Land-Grant Acts in 1862." When reading this sentence, it seemed too specific for what the rest of the paragraph was saying. Why is information about the university here?
The year, 1862, is in chrono order. Removed this.
Restored it. Do you agree it works better in the Education section?
  • "In 1855 with a charter from the legislature, Steele and associates opened the first bridge across the Mississippi; the toll bridge cost pedestrians three cents" Why is this important for the history of the city, or can it be removed?
Removed.
  • "1989 Minnesota Archaeological Society analysis of the Minneapolis riverfront describes the use of water power in Minneapolis between 1880 and 1930 as "the greatest direct-drive waterpower center the world has ever seen." This feels more like commentary and less like history, so I think it can be removed to decrease the wordcount here.
Removed.
  • "Minneapolis earned the nickname "Mill City."" This comes before the information about the mills. If the mills gave the city its nickname, I suggest putting this afterwards, adding information about when the nickname was used, and stating that the mills gave the city this nickname.
Sourced. Kept as part of intro.
Cited founding of Washburn-Crosby and General Mills.
  • I don't think the first paragraph of the "Other industries develop" section is necessary, as the information is intended to be humorous, not factual, or the information is present later in the article.
Removed the whole paragraph.

Those are my thoughts for now. Stopping at "Other industries develop" and hope to continue later. Z1720 (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done so far. One question above for you. (I think the university is too big to ignore that its land was more or less stolen.) -SusanLesch (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Z1720? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing:
  • There are a lot of businesses listed in "Other industries develop". This section struggles to connect the businesses with the history of the city: how did these businesses affect the city? Also, lots of the information is cited to the company's website. Do secondary sources think these businesses are notable to Minneapolis's history? If not, they should be removed.
Onan has one company citation, however Onan's notability is cited to Stipanovich. (There aren't "lots of" these, only one.)
  • The first paragraph of "Social tension" seems to be a list of facts, with no cohesion to it.
You removed the topic sentence of that paragraph.
Interestingly you seem to remove topic sentences and transitional sentences. Even though that kind of edit logically cuts the word count, I prefer to have the breathers. They're like asides that don't require hard thought.
I undid deletions of topic sentences twice in History. Topic sentences are needed! They are designed to unite "a list of facts, with no cohesion". I added one topic sentence "Disparate events defined the late 20th century." which will function once as a catch-all.
  • I think the second paragraph, talking about the Black population of the city, might be better in the demographics section.
It's about any non-White race (not only the Black population). Agree this can be done. Still I wonder if having the topic here helps the reader understand Structural racism which now comes first. Does it work in the new spot?
  • The biggest problem I see in the history section is that it is divided by theme instead of a timeline. In addition, subsections within the History section are also divided by theme or just randomly placed in a new paragraph. This makes the section difficult to read and hard to find information, especially in the later parts of the section. Looking back at the 2007 version that passed FAC, I think editors added prose randomly into this section, causing it to become bloated and filled with non-notable information with low-quality sources. I suggest that this whole section be re-written and organised chronologically. This will greatly help with reducing the amount of text in this article. For an example of how a history section of a city can be organised, take a look at Hamilton, Ontario.
  • Disagree with what you say here. No low-quality sources or non-notable information was added. If anything the quality of sources has improved since 2007. The Works cited section is new.
  • The entire History section is already in close-to-strict chronological order, proceeding from 1000 A.D. to 2020. Yes, there are a few exceptions, likely to be found at the end of a section to bring that topic up to the present day. (See note below about removing everything after Mr. Floyd.)
  • Ways to solve what you're finding:
  • One, omit or footnote information that doesn't strictly follow a timeline, we hope reducing work for the reader. (For example, remove "The city's first commercial sawmill was built in 1848, and the first gristmill in 1849.")
  • Second, rewrite to eliminate awkward jumps in the timeline (for example, drop the first date: "In 1886, businessman George D. Munsing built a textile business called Munsingwear to sell wool underwear covered in silk. The business lasted a century and in 1923 it was the world's largest manufacturer of underwear.").
  • Third, the Structural racism section is undated and could be moved away.

Those are my thoughts. Finished with the history, will move on to other sections later. Z1720 (talk) 21:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My husband and I are sick with the flu (not COVID). I'll try to work at your other comments ASAP. Hamilton history looks nice! Thanks for explaining your viewpoint. I was ticked off yesterday at the clearcut approach, but seeing that helps me understand. Thanks for your review. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Z1720, can you please sign off on the 3-point plan above? Two editors are waiting to execute it. (I am back 80+ percent.) Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SusanLesch: I think this is good! Most of the information is useful and has great sources, but would be better in other sections or articles. Examples include: the info about businesses, which can move to Economy, and the demographics information can go to the Demographics section. I look forward to reading through this when it is complete. Z1720 (talk) 14:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't think it's possible to move the businesses to Economy where they'd stand out as WP:UNDUE, and we'd have to add origin stories for Target Corp, Ameriprise, Thrivent. The Economy section is better as it is—high level. -SusanLesch (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Z1720, the History section is down from 7000 to 4500 words. Please see what you think. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy with the History section. Are we good, Z1720? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720: ↑ Nikkimaria (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
📆

@Z1720: Thank you for your review. I'm not sure that we have your full attention. Some of your comments seem like guesses or just wrong. "Looking back at the 2007 version that passed FAC, I think editors added prose randomly into this section, causing it to become bloated and filled with non-notable information with low-quality sources.", "The biggest problem I see in the history section is that it is divided by theme instead of a timeline.", "lots of the information is cited to the company's website" Nearly a year went by since I brought this to FAR, Wikipedia has WP:NODEADLINE, however, a whole month disappeared since you last posted. This article deserves better. It meets all Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, it is thoroughly researched with a stunning new Works cited section, not to mention that SandyGeorgia helped its development and it passed Hog Farm's painstaking review. I respect that you are busy improving the encyclopedia—but my time has value, too. Are you ready to close this out and declare keep? -SusanLesch (talk) 21:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments

[edit]

Trying to consolidate keep !votes. Postponing seems more and more pointless.

  • SandyGeorgia, I'd like to see all your work bear fruit. Can you !vote to keep today? Thank you for questioning claims over the years.
  • Hog Farm, my teacher on MOS:PEACOCK, declared keep a month ago. Language was toned down throughout.
  • Buidhe, thank you for your image review. Do you think it is ever safe to assume a daguerreotype from the 1850s is public domain? If you don't, I will remove it. Pending copyright information from the Minnesota Historical Society (which they seem to have buried), we removed a log jam from 1881. Can you sign off on this article?

-SusanLesch (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a solid keep too. I gave the prose a real run through the wringer, and SL fixed up even the pickiest of bits. I checked many source during the review, including some random spot checks, and all issues (there were few) have been addressed. Great work. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria, this is probably ready for your review when you're next doing FAR coord work. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding my keep !vote to make three. Thank you to the reviewers whose suggestions stand out. Thanks to Sandy for many years of work. Special thanks to the coordinators for their unexpected patience—we've gone over a year. Made a final pass for loose ends and thanks to FFF, this one looks to be in apple-pie order. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FFFeedback

[edit]
  1. In §Health care, it would be worth all the downsides of passive voice to start the first sentence with "The city is served by ..." Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Can the list of hospitals be cut down? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Readers will take "Cardiac surgery was developed ..." to mean that such surgeries were first done in Minneapolis. I think it's worth spending some words to clarify what exactly was accomplished. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Our article on Hennepin County Medical Center suggests that's the name for the hospital, with Hennepin Healthcare being the name for the org that administers it. Whatever we land on, there should be consistency between the prose and the caption. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Too much attention given to alt names for Hennepin County Medical Center/Hennepin Healthcare. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Should consistently use either "percent" or "%" in prose. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  7. In §Transportation, why the about in "about six bus rapid transit (BRT) lines"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  8. The part about scooters/bikes needs an update. A glance at this source suggests they were available again in 2024 and implies they were available in 2023. This was the first source that came up, and a better one may be available. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  9. It seems like the article trends toward the use of the serial (Oxford) comma. I've added it in a few places where it was missing, but a full pass is needed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, I prefer the serial comma and thank you for the corrections. One more comma quirk: I generally follow the rule that years in numerals are followed by a comma. An example here: Minneapolis was incorporated as a city in 1867, and in 1872, it merged with St. Anthony. Doing a comma check pass now. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  10. I've corrected a couple comma errors, where one was erroneously included to separate the parts of a complex predicate. Needs a full pass. I can help with this and the above item if you want me to. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:37, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  11. Compound adjectives like "15th largest" should be hyphenated. Current usage is mixed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  12. Back in §Health care, "the university's Variety Club Heart Hospital": which university? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  13. Since we go a bit into the history of U of M, mentioning the year of establishment would be nice. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  14. "College rankings for 2023 place the school in the range of 44th (2024) to 195th for academics worldwide": the 2023 and 2024 seem to conflict. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  15. Looks like new rankings are available from U.S. News & World Report. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  16. "the state constitution included the provision: regents are in control": MOS:COLON would suggest against this sort of colon use. Replacement with a "that" would work. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  17. "revived using land taken from the Dakota people under the Morrill Act of 1862" is unclear. I think maybe we mean "revived under the Morrill Act of 1862 using land taken from the Dakota people"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to talk. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firefangledfeathers, how are things looking here? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:31, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Still reviewing at the FAR talk page, and SL has (of course) been responsive. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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