Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Youngstown, Ohio

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:02, 26 November 2007.

Youngstown, Ohio

previous FAC

This article has been vastly improved since the last nomination, and most of the previous comments have been taken into consideration. Over 250 edits have been made since that time to improve the quality of the article. There are ample inline citations, over 80, with a very clear and concise writing style. Ample photographs are included in the article to visually highlight some of the writing. To the best of my knowledge, all tables and templates meet Wikipedia's standards in formatting and design. I would appreciate your vote to approve this as a Featured Article. --Daysleeper47 14:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment ~~I think you should change "Challenging old verities" to crime~~. Looking in the contents list one would have no idea where the crime section was located. Also, what does "Challenging old verities" mean anyway? Challenging old truth? You are talking about crime, might as well call it that. Every other city does. KnightLago 17:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support I agree with the above recommending that the section name be changed. Perhaps "Crime reputation". This section is good because it's honest. The city has been associated with gangsters, at least in the past. In wikipedia, all we want is honesty, not falsely positive or negative articles. Good article! How did al-Bireh become sister city? Any ideas? Mrs.EasterBunny 20:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to query Regarding al-Bireh, I don't know the details. I can tell you that Youngstown has a large Palestinian-born population. This may account for the sister city relationship with al-Bireh. twelsht 21:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pass & support

On the basis that it's decent.

Remark: Attractions is pretty hefty. Are we trying to sell the town? Leranedo 02:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All concerns resolved, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, some work needed still. I left sample edits; please see the edit summaries.[1] Attention is needed to overlinking and non-breaking hard spaces between numerical and non-numerical elements. I did numerous WP:DASH and WP:MOSDATE fixes, but it would help to ask Brighterorange (talk · contribs) to run his script to fix the endashes in the page ranges. More importantly, the citations need attention. Many publishers are not identified, so reliability of sources can't be evaluated, some sources are dead links, and some refs aren't formatted correctly (see WP:CITE/ES). Named refs aren't employed, so there are repeat refs (see WP:FN). You could also shorten the citation list and simplify text editing significantly by created a References sectoin to list book sources, and then include only the page in the footnote citation with <ref>Author (year), p. x</ref>, instead of repeating all of that book information in every citation. Avoid using the word currently (example, "The only commercial route currently ... " and "Currently, local railroads only serve cargo trains ... "). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply SandyGeorgia, thanks for the comments. I have corrected all of the issues except the citation problem, including delinking repetitive links, worked to remove overlinking and Brightorange run the script to correct the dashes. To the WP:FA moderator, I would appreciate if this nomination was left open until I can correct the remaining citation issues, probably tomorrow or Thursday. I believe this article is close and would hate to have to renominate this article needlessly for these issues when they can be corrected right away. Thanks! --Daysleeper47 20:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm starting to review now, but I'm not sure I'll finish tonight. By the way, I prefer to strike my own commentary, as I can use the list to check each item. Brighterorange hasn't been through yet I see. I also see missing publishers; I'll do a few citation edits as samples. See WP:CITE/ES; all sources should have publishers, author and date should be supplied when available, and last access date on websources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I put in an additional request to Brighterorange, since refs were changed since he went through, and hyphens were re-inserted on page ranges; those should be endashes. Still reviewing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

{{USCensusPop}} displays negative percent changes with a hyphen rather than a minus sign; I put in a request for it to be fixed on the talk page there. The error in the template is beyond your control, but perhaps you can follow up on my post. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I left a string of sample edits;[2] the biggest issue is that publishers still aren't identified correctly on sources, named refs are employed incorrectly (resulting in misleading sources), and there is other missing info on sources. There's also some WP:UNITS attention needed on nbsps. I agree that the article is close, though. Let me know when you've completed the citation work and I'll have another look. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~There are still a number of dead links, and an independent source is required to place Dana School of Music in the same class as Oberlin.~~ Is it The Vindicator, The Youngstown Vindicator or The Youngstown Daily Vindicator? It's labeled three different ways in the citations. I removed the word "elite" from culture center (POV); if the NYT article uses that word, it can be re-added, but since the article isn't online, I couldn't check. You might want to run through the article one last time to check for things like that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on the date of issue, the name could be any of the three. The Youngstown Daily Vindicator became the Youngstown Vindicator which became the Vindicator around 1990. Should the citations reflect the name today or the name at the time of issue? --Daysleeper47 19:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's best to stick with the name at the time the article was published. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also checked all the links in the Notes section and didn't find any dead links. Am I looking in the wrong spot to check these links? --Daysleeper47 19:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only remaining dead link is to the golf course; I'm striking my oppose since most of the work is done; it's only that one link. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Query Given that the local newspaper altered its name over time, it might be less confusing to refer to it simply as The (Youngstown) Vindicator? Any thoughts? twelsht 20:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Best to stick with the name at the time the article was published, as theoretically that's the way it would be in a library. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~Support—It's quite good now; I've made a few tweaks; can you change the hyphens to proper minus signs for the temperatures, in two tables (or en dashes, but the former are below the edit box as a 'click', which can be copied and pasted after the first one). One "United States" among otherwise consistent "U.S.". Check what "poverty line" means—is it linkable to a specific US p l? 1a. Here are random samples of the need to bring on board a copy-editor or two with a track-record in similar good articles (research FAs, edit histories and summaries).

Done"when the U.S. steel industry shifted production overseas in the 1970s"—Now are you sure that this doesn't oversimplify the transition? Perhaps there was a degree of direct capital transfer to low-cost economies by the local companies, but I suspect that most of the "rust belt" phenomenon occurred through just import competition and plain job and market loss, without directd "shift of production".
Done Eight years ago is the most recent population estimate?

2006 census estimate added

Done "comprises around 697,481 residents"—Sure it's not 697,481.6?
Done "is centrally located between New York City and Chicago"—no, "lies midway between".
Done "became a popular destination for immigrants from Eastern Europe, Italy, and Greece as well."—Why "as well"? Are we missing some point here? Straight after this, weed out the "also".
Done "Urban neighborhoods are dotted with religious landmarks including churches, synagogues, and mosques."—Wouldn't it be neater as just "Urban neighborhoods are dotted with churches, synagogues, and mosques."? Tony (talk) 13:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Tony, Thanks for your comments. They were fair and accurate. The decline of the U.S. steel industry was more complicated than the second paragraph suggested, and the article has stylistic weaknesses. After reading your comments, I made changes based on some of your recommendations. There is more work to be done. Here is a list of changes I've made so far:

modified misleading passage on decline of steel industry
included 2006 estimate of Youngstown's population (the next official census will be conducted in 2010)
added details on Connecticut Western Reserve--perhaps a brief description of Northwest Territory and CWR is in order
weeded out extraneous language (1st half of article)
modified awkward phrases and sentences (1st half of article)

I plan to look over the article tomorrow. Any further comments and recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks. - twelsht (talk) 03:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Recommendations on ways to improve this article should be referred to Daysleeper47. Thanks. -- twelsht (talk) 13:11, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:::After reading Tony's comments, it appears to me that they seem more concerned with writer's style that substance. Your style is just different, not better. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I remove my comment of objection. After reading it again, I apologize and have found them to be fair and substantive. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 17:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I share Daysleeper's concerns. A few of Tony's comments were helpful. He noted that an introductory statement on the decline of the U.S. steel industry was misleading. I modified this statement a few days ago. In response to another comment, I added a 2006 population estimate for the municipality. The issue of style is more subjective, but I acted on several of his recommendations. While this article would benefit from the input of a seasoned FA copy editor, it has already been through multiple peer reviews. Some reviewers described its narrative style as clear and concise. I hope that this article won't be held back on the basis of largely subjective concerns. While I can no longer participate in this process, I wanted to lend support to Daysleeper's comment. Thanks, again, for your feedback. Respectfully, twelsht (talk) 19:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Appreciation: This is a brief note of thanks to those who assessed Youngstown, Ohio. Participants in the Youngstown project are especially grateful to SandyGeorgia, who provided numerous sample edits and worked closely with us to improve the main article. Sincerely, twelsht (talk) 09:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Okay, by no means an expert in this field but, nevertheless, my comments follow for what they're worth!

Note: I added comments and replied, and will add more as I have time. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done Lead is a little confusing, you have geography, then history then census then a little more geography.

Reply: I didn't add any new text, but I reordered it in a manner which I think is more organized. -Daysleeper47

Done Image:City seal.gif needs work. There's a fair use licence attributed without source or copyright information (see the precise wording of the template there) and the image is used in lots of articles - a fair use rationale needs to be added for each and every fair use.
Citations shouldn't have a space between them and what they're citing. Also they need to be placed immediately to the right of punctuation where possible - see WP:CITE.
Done Why a whole sentence in parentheses? In fact, there are a couple...
No need to repeatedly use same citation in consecutive sentences e.g. [30], [43].
"Many observers have pointed out, however, that Youngstown has yet to move into a "post-steel" economy." - one of the few sentences without a citation which really needs more than one!
Done I've no idea but is downtown usually capitalised or not? At least there should be some consistency within the article.

Reply: I only found one, perhaps someone corrected them before me. I left it lowercase unless it starts a sentence.

Done "...fiercest competitor..." sounds a bit peacock to me unless it's in the citation...

Reply: The word is not in the article, and has been removed. The article is not available for free, so I the byline and headline, found the article, and searched again with the word 'fiercest' and didn't find it -Daysleeper47

It seems like the last sentence of most sections have no citation.
Done "... several decades ago (in the mid-1960s)..." one or the other...
"...despite intermittent financial challenges." - citation required.
Done "This unusual museum..." what makes it unusual?

Reply: I removed the word 'unusual'. While the museum looks at working-class studies, it isn't unusual enough to warrant the word. -Daysleeper47

Done Big space toward the end of the Sports section, and if one of the boxers is redlinked, is he really notable? (not an accusation, more of a question!)

Reply: Greg Richardson is a notable bantamweight boxer with a 38-8-1 records.

Done Sports table seems a bit unexplained...

Reply: Agreed; table was removed as the table text was already explained in the article's main body. -Daysleeper47

Done "Observers note the absence of a single new car dealership operating within the city limits, and also observe that city residents are often forced to do their shopping in the surrounding suburbs of Boardman, Niles, Austintown, or Liberty Township." - again, "Observers note... etc" needs to be cited.

Reply: I removed the sentence. I couldn't find a reliable online citation and my book resources are currently unavailable. If I find something, I will re-add it. -Daysleeper47

Done Media section is entirely unreferenced.

Reply: I rewrote the section and include citations. I removed many of the bulleted lists and worked it into prose. -Daysleeper47

Please take all with a pinch of salt, I'm more used to reading and writing about footballers so I may not have got the hang of this! Let me know if I can help in any way. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Because of the Thanksgiving holiday, I will be out of town until Sunday morning and have little internet access to follow this FA-nom. I made many of the changes suggested and hope to follow up with the rest after I return. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 02:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.