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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:34, 28 October 2008 [1].

Vithoba

[edit]
Nominator(s): Redtigerxyz (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because

  • I feel the article fulfills FA criteria.
  • It covers all areas that a Hindu deity article should have. The article can be compared with FA Ganesha (the only Hindu deity FA) for reference, though Vithoba article differs in certain areas as Ganesha is a pan-Indian deity, Vithoba is a regional one.
  • Vithoba article is a GA from 14 July 2008 and is peer reviewed on August 6, 2008.

Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • What makes the following reliable sources?
  • http://books.google.com/books?id=ltJI5KhFTRUC this is a google snippet, which doesn't allow you to gather the full context of the work. It also was originally published in the 1950's, surely there is something more recent? ALSO, this is an encyclopedia, and the articles are written by individuals, and the author of the snippet you've pulled out isn't Hastings, it's a W. Crooke. Use {{cite encyclopedia}} to format this correctly.
  • Again, the Eaton book is being used as Google snippets of a search, you can't get the full context by doing this.
  • Do you want last name first or first name first on the authors? Pick one and be consistent.
  • Same deal on the Chavan work, it's a google books search, was the printed source consulted to make sure the full context of the author's statements was understood?
  • Rather than repeat myself with each use of Google Books searches, I'll make a general statement that you need to consult the whole work, not just the limited preview given by Google Books.
My concern isn't so much with using a convience link to the pages on Google Books, but a concern that the research on the article itself was conducted via Google Search without actually consulting the books and gaining the full context. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY: Thanks for your comments.

CLARIFY in DETAIL: List of refs that are taken only from google books (All other books' hard hopies are checked, the google books version of these may or may not have the pages from where the text is referenced). Note most of the following do not have Vithoba as the central subject, but make mentioned Vithoba as a sub-topic or a passing reference:
  • Ref 2: (Crooke W. (2003). "Pandharpur", editor Hastings) entire article is present
  • Ref 10: (Zelliot, Eleanor (1988). The Experience of Hinduism: Essays on Religion in Maharashtra.), only 1 page is used as reference, that too just a 5-line note by the author.
  • Ref 11: (Chavan, V. P. (1991). Vaishnavism of the Gowd Saraswat Brahmins and a Few Konkani Folklore Tales), again only 5 lines are considered as that is the amount the author comments on the Shankra - Vithoba connection.
  • Ref 14: (Kelkar, Ashok R. (2001). "Sri-Vitthal: Ek Mahasamanvay (Marathi) by R.C. Dhere". Encyclopaedia of Indian literature 5) The whole encyclopedia entry is visible.
  • Ref 15: (Schomer, Karine; McLeod, W. H. (1987). Vaudeville in The Sants: Studies in a Devotional Tradition of India) The whole section(The Shaiva origins of god Vitthala) is visible on google books.
  • Ref 18: (Anon [1898] (1988). The Great Temples of India, Ceylon, and Burma) The whole section (Pandharpur and Jejuri) is available.
  • Ref 24: (Gokhale, Shobana (1985). "The Pandharpur Stone inscription of the Yadava king Mahadeva Sake 1192) The whole article is available.
  • Ref 33: (Ranade, R. D. (1988). Mysticism in Maharashtra: Indian Mysticism) The whole section(history of vitthala sampradaya) is available.
  • Ref 38: (Zelliot, Eleanor; Berntsen, Maxine (1988). The Experience of Hinduism: Essays on Religion in Maharashtra) The whole section "Influence of Shaivism" is available.
  • Ref 41: (Keer, Dhanajay [1954] (2005). Dr. Ambedkar: Life and Mission) 1 para that is all the author comments on Vithoba and Ambedkar
  • Ref 45: (Pillai, S. Devadas (1997). Indian Sociology Through Ghurye, a Dictionary) The 2 page entry on Vithoba is completely visible.
  • Ref 53: (Kiehnle, Catharina (1997). Songs on Yoga: Texts and Teachings of the Mahārāṣṭrian Nāths) A footnote discusses the word "Kannada", in connection to Vithoba.
  • Ref 59: (Flood, Gavin D. (2003). The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism) There are 2 paras dedicated to Haridasa, both available on google books.
  • REf 83: (T. Padmaja (2002). Temples of Kr̥ṣṇa in South India: History, Art, and Traditions in Tamilnāḍu) All pages where Vittala is discussed, are avilable.
  • ref 84: (Ranade, R. D.. Mysticism in Maharashtra: Indian Mysticism) The entire article on Bhanudas available.
  • Ref 87: (Rao, Vasudeva (2002). Living Traditions in Contemporary Contexts: The Madhva Matha of Udupi) The whole table is avilable where 8 deities of Upudi mathas are listed.
  • ref 9 and 85: (Eaton, Richard Maxwell (2005). A Social History of the Deccan, 1300–1761: Eight Indian Lives) The entire section "Pastoral tribes and religions of Desh" available, also the Vitthala temple in Hampi is discussed only in 1 page (the earlier and later page also available to check validity of the argument), which is available.

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY to comments on 2 OCT:

Moved my comments dated 12:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC), 11:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC), 13:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC), 12:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC) and reorganized them as below:

http://www.ambedkar.org/Tirupati/Chap4.htm is a RS because:

  • It is an ebook version of the book "Tirupati Balaji was a Buddhist Shrine" [2]
  • The author has B.A. degree of Nagpur University in Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archeology. Got elected as an non teaching expert member of Board of studies in History in Nagpur University for two terms of three years each. Biography of "Tirupati Balaji was a Buddhist Shrine" author
  • The book is present at the Library of Congress as asserted in the the biography above. Library website
  • The book states "it's sources" Bibliography with inline citations. (All of which are RS) "Third-party publications from reliable sources that support the site as a self-published source(if it is) or that the author is a noted expert in their field" is fulfilled.
  • The book is used as a reference (44) here, Henry Martyn Centre, Westminster College, Cambridge CB3 0AA, UK. Used as reference (3) here Non-English [3] and Columbia University site - non-English article [4], that is, other people have considered it reliable.

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dvaita.org is a RS because:

  • It gives it's sources, fulfilling ""you can show that the website gives its sources and methods" criteria. Bibliography (All of which are RS) is quoted at http://www.dvaita.org/haridasa/index.html "Third-party publications from reliable sources that support the site as a self-published source(if it is)" applies. In addition to links about Bibloliography, Documentation of Dvaita is given here.
  • Apart from being referenced 70 times on wikipedia [5], Dvaita.org is mentioned at Intute, a free online service providing you with a database of hand selected Web resources for education and research. [6]
  • Experiencing the World’s Religions, 4th Edition, publisher: Mcgraw hill(an established publisher) provides Dvaita,org in it's World Religion Links[7]
  • Atleast 6 books from 2004 onwards refer to this website [8], Tulu Tales: A Soota Chronicle by G. Kameshwar (University of Michigan) - 2004 [9] calls it "an invaluable web resource about Udupi Sri Krishna and doctrine of Sri Madhvacharya".--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Vaishnavism, "Dvaita.org offers a general FAQ on Vaishnavism". [10] "FindingDulcinea presents only credible, high-quality and trustworthy Web sites, saving time for the novice and the experienced user alike."
  • The Hoot [11] received a letter about plagalarism of the site by The Times of India. The thing to read in this article is the aims of dvaita.org as said by the webmaster: "Though generally the site has a religious bent, as it is meant to inform about the dualistic Vedanta of the 13-century saint Madhva, we have tried to give it an academic focus suitable for non-religious types; students and professors of Indology find out site a useful resource, more so as it is perhaps the only one of its kind. We have published several ancient, out-of-print works on Vedanta by making them available for download on the Net." --Redtigerxyz (talk) 18:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, nice suggestion.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No probs, happy to help. Also I tried to link Kole, but that place in India doesn't yet have an article. Is it known by other names, such as perhaps being yet another name for Kolar? If not you could go up one level of Geography with a phrase such as Kole, [[district name]] district. ϢereSpielChequers 12:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not so sure about the exact geography either, i am sure it is in the state of Maharashtra, as per reference. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found it, it is in Satara district. [12] --Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's good. Also I've just spotted in the last sentence of Vithoba#Devotional works That it opens a bracket at "(monkey god," but doesn't close it. ϢereSpielChequers 23:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for resolving my concerns, not sure I yet feel qualified to assess whether an article meets the FA standard or not, but as my concerns have been addressed perhaps whoever is assessing this candidacy could count me as Unqualified Support ϢereSpielChequers 12:54, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY:

I corrected the tag/sourcing for the Gutenberg image. I'm not the biggest fan of commenting out, as it tends to be WP:BEANS for someone unaware of this discussion to come along and uncomment out, but I've stricken as they're "technically" removed. The crux of the issue with Image:Vitthal.png is, again, that it is an object that still exists. The temple itself could release a free image, the template could change policy to allow photographs, or someone could ignore the policy and take a photograph. Эlcobbola talk 14:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate Эlcobbola's help in fixing the tag at Gutenberg img. Thanks.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The comments are removed.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If Ignore the policy is suggested for a photo in the temple, then shouldn't it be done here? In my opinion, the fair use rationale is valid, though i will respect a third opinion saying the photo be removed, if it is only hurdle between the article and FA status. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The rationale doesn't even discuss free replacability (NFCC#10C and WP:RAT), let alone apply to an image that passes it (NFCC#1). IAR can be applied when following policy would be a detriment to the encyclopedia. A free encyclopedia is never hurt by requiring a free image when one could still be obtained. Has http://www.maharashtra.gov.in been asked to release a free version? There are several pictures on Flickr - have any of those uploaders been asked to release a free version? Has an image been requested? We don't ignore policy because it is an inconvenience. Эlcobbola talk 14:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have mailed the site, there was no reply.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disputed img is removed. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 15:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Concerns stricken. No remaining image issues. Эlcobbola talk 15:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support in terms of prose. Could do with a little scrutiny, but not bad at all.

  • "Historicity"—dear, English has some ugly words, and most readers won't know what it means, exactly. Why not "historical authenticity", which is my dictionary's sole definition?
  • "Many conflicting theories exist"—Newsflash for all nominators: when you see "exist", check whether the superior "There is/are" can be substituted. This is the case here.
  • Is it common in Indian English to space the initials of people's names? Better on a justified computer screen not to, I'd have thought, but it's no big deal.
  • "Epithet for, not of". I thought epithets were adjectives. Maybe it's a wider class ...
  • Some of the paragraphs are big and grey; some I see are not easily divisible, but I haven't looked at all from that perspective. You might find some. Tony (talk) 07:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY: Thanks for the support.

Support. My earlier lengthy comments are on the article's talk page and were all sufficiently answered/satisfied by the author. The author has picked a difficult topic, that of a regional deity, and brought out nicely its evolution theories without regionalising the subject. The plausible influence of other cults and faiths on the development of this worship and that of this deity on neighbouring socio-religions movements (such as the Haridasa movement) has also been dealt with well. In all, a good job.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support. Talk:Vithoba#comments: Link to Dineshkannambadi's comments on Vithoba talk, for reference. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

All of them are authors or religious scholars for sure. Adding "scholar XYZ" before every name will make the text repetitive. Even FA Ganesha uses "Martin-Dubost says..", "Krishan notes that..", "Paul Courtright says that...", "..as Robert Brown explains.." The references indicate that they are authors. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 08:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have answered the questions raised about RS, the commenter has replied "I'll leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)" To prove that the source is a RS, i have included links to website articles of Columbia University and Westminster College for one and Intute recognizing the other as "Web resource for education and research". Also both articles provide their sources and have Bibliography sections. I have also addressed the google snippet issue, i would like to quote my fello wikiuser "Otherwise sources look good". Any suggestions what can be done? --Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Had requested the reviewer for comments. his/her reply can be read on User talk:Ealdgyth.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's gonna take a long time to go through all the issues I think I see here; I may not finish today (have things to do in real life). This morning's comments will focus on the referencing. Please be aware that referencing is not the only problem; it's just all I have time for at this moment... Right off the bat:
  • I see quotes "according to Valentine" and "according to Deleury" etc. But no Valentine or Deleury in refs. Please check the whole article (not just Valentine and Deleury) for such omissions. This makes the article smell dangerously like copy/paste.
  • I see refs such as "Bhandarkar in Sand p.36". What year is Sand? Is it the same Sand that has multiple co-authors in the References section? If so, check various online resources for instructions regarding the use of co-author's names or et al., whichever is appropriate (I suspect the latter).
  • Please make named refs for Bhandarkar p. 124, Bhandarkar p. 125, Bhandarkar pp. 125–6, Novetzke p. 116, Sand p. 56, Sand p.37, Shima p. 188 as well as "Kiehnle, Catharina (1997). Songs on Yoga: Texts and Teachings of ... " and "Eaton, Richard Maxwell (2005). A Social History of the Deccan..."
  • Looking at the last two above, why are books listed in the Notes instead of the References?
  • That's all for now. Those are not the only issues, but real life is calling. I will talk about 1a (prose) later.
  • Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 02:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments, the article is going to improve due to the comments.
* I see no Valentine referenced, for Deleury, his views are backed with Notes saying: "Deleury in Sand p. 38" (secondary reference) changed to "Deleury as quoted in Sand p. 38<" or the "Gazetteers Dept, Government of Maharashtra" site. Delrury's book - primary ref in "Further Reading" Deleury, G. A. (1960). The cult of Vithoba, Pune: Deccan College, Postgraduate and Research Institute (Original from the University of Michigan), Magis Books. The "according to" parts are included because the personal view of the scholar in question, is noted (the view- is attributed to the scholar, to show that it is not the view of the wiki-editor thus NOt OR), other scholars may have other views and other theories.
* Named ref used.
* Sand is year 1990, see references. Removed multiple co-authors. Now, Only editor is included.
* Included all books in references.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User:Ling.Nut is on a short wikibreak as per his talk, thus his concerns about 1a (prose) could not be known. I have left a note on his/her talk requesting comments. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added 2 new images. All images, on Flickr related to Vithoba have "All rights reserved". Have requested some sites if their images can be used here, so far so positive reply. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 09:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed Image:Dnyaneshwar.JPG image, it is a photo of a plaster of paris image of Dnyaneshwar, which my friend had brought. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are currently 7 images present, and 1 more will added after the copyright holder tells me the license. The copyright holder had sent me a mail saying the image use on wiki is OK, but did not mention livense. I am in contact with User:elcobbola (see his/her talk) about the new image upload. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At least one of the images is a b/w whose colors have been altered... se http://flickr.com/photos/an2/2623887237/. Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 03:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Warkaris are known to wear saffron clothes, carry saffron banners and have a saffron Tilak (mark on forehead). The saffron colour is closely related to Hinduism, as a whole. So the picture is not a misrepresentation, in my humble opinion. Notice a warkari is wearing saffron clothes, the saffron banners here. [14] and saffron tilak here [15].--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Still Oppose per 1a. Let me look at one (and only one) section. Please take the entire artice for thorough copy editing. Please do not repair this list and ask for a reconsideration of my !vote:

  • Legend section:
  • "There are two versions of the Vithoba legend..." In some respects (but not all, especially linking) think it will help if you view each section as a miniature stand-alone essay. The first sentence of this section does not fulfill the function of a thesis sentence. It does not set forth the controlling idea of the section, nor mention the points that willo be covered... It mentions two versions in the Skanda Purana; it isn't until halfway through the section that I discover there are other versions in the Padma Purana and elsewhere. Moreover, the anecdotes recounted in this section are not diffrent versions of the same legend; they are different legends altogether. This is not mentioned.
  • "...a devotee of Vishnu as well of his parents." The referent of "his parents" is ambiguous.
  • "Pundarika asks Krishna for a boon to stay in that form..." Awkward connection between "boon" and "stay in that form". It reads as though the boon is staying in some form.
  • "When he asked the reason for their appearance, they told Pundalik that Kukkuta served his parents and thus became pious and that by serving the sage they became pure too." Snake sentence.
  • "The last version of the legend..." If this is the last version, why is there another legend immediately below it? Why is it last? Does it somehow occur chronologically after the others, or was it written later?
  • "to groom horses while Pundalik and his wife rode on horseback" Pundalik's parents are grooming the moving horses while Pundalik and his wife ride them?
  • "Radha did not honour Rukmini, the chief queen of Krishna" I.. am guessing.. that it is the custom for lovers of the king to pay some sort of tribute or honor to the queen before making love to the king. Is that correct? I have to guess. it is distracting.
  • "Pundalik threw a brick outside for Krishna to stand on.." Why? Was it muddy or was there cow poop on the ground or something?
  • "Pundalik asked a boon that the Lord " Syntax error in the use of "boon" again.
  • "should stand in that form with Rakhumai" how and why did Rakhumai enter into this story?
  • "...in the form of a Mahar "untouchable" and "went to the palace in form of Sena" This paragraph lacks coherence. The first sentence would lead the reader to think the pragraph is about a number of stories in which Vithoba is in the form of a Mahar...but no, one sentence is about coming in the form of sena, and then later Vithoba comes "as an outcast". It needs a topic sentence that draws the connection between these two. In fact, the lack of coherence and a lack of topic sentences seems to be a common thread in these errors. Please have experienced copy editors address these and other problems.
  • Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: Thanks for the comments, will add the topic sentences tomorrow.

  • The section primarily deals with two legends: 1. versions of the Pundalik legend and 2. others: interacctions with saint poets. The "Devotional works" section has already listed all the books in advance, listing them is futile.
  • Yes, Pundarika is described as a devotee of his parents, this is the way it is described in the Sanskrit text.
  • Read the sentence as a whole "Pundalik and his wife [..] forced the parents to walk the whole way and to groom horses while Pundalik and his wife rode on horseback."
  • "Radha did not honour Rukmini, the chief queen of Krishna" nothing is said about "making love". Please do not read too much between the lines. "Radha did not honour Rukmini, the chief queen of Krishna, nor did Krishna hold Radha accountable for the offense" It is a custom to pay sort of tribute or honor to the queen.
  • "Pundalik threw a brick outside for Krishna to stand on.." I don't know, I can't speculate. The thing the reference says "Pundalik threw a brick outside for Krishna to stand on.."
  • Rakhumai and Rukmini are same as discussed in Consorts.
  • "The last version of the legend..." in the sense it the last version of the Pundalik story discussed, which is given ahead.
  • There are hundreds of minor legends relating to every other Varkari saint. All can't be covered.

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 18:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added topic sentences for other paras too.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 13:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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