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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Tintin in the Congo

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Tintin in the Congo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Prhartcom (talk) and Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC) [reply]

We are nominating this for featured article status because it has achieved GA status and we believe that it now also meets FA criteria. After the recent promotion of Tintin in the Land of the Soviets to FA status, we feel that it is time that its successor volume, Tintin in the Congo, did too. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: This is certainly a good candidate for FA status. I do, however, have some severe reservations about one phrase, which I admit has been used word-for-word elsewhere. "According to Tintinologist Harry Thompson, such political ideas were common in Belgium at the time, where "patriotism, Catholicism, strict morality, discipline, and naivety were so inextricably bound together in everyone's lives that right-wing politics were an almost inevitable by-product."" I do not doubt that Mr. Thompson does say this, but it's also undeniably untrue - or at least not quite as authoritative as it is made to seem. Granted that the Catholic Party (and later, but to a lesser extent, Rex) was dominant through almost all this period, it neglects the equally large number of people who voted Liberal, Socialist or Communist. Some acknowledgement that Mr. Thompson's comment refers to a certain class, locality etc. in Belgium in which Hergé mixed at the time would remedy this I'm sure.Brigade Piron (talk) 21:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Very interesting point Brigade Piron; it is true that Thompson was no historian. Maybe we could think about rephrasing this. Perhaps something like "Conservative ideas revolving around ""patriotism, Catholicism, strict morality, discipline, and naivety" pervaded Herge's milieu" ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Yes, I think that would cover it nicely, though I think the politics of the newspaper itself could be helpfully emphasized in the same sentence? Otherwise I think the article would be a good adition to the FA and, to me at least, seems extremely well done.Brigade Piron (talk) 16:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and made the alteration. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - fair-use OK some issues (fair-use). A topic like that can have more than 1 fair-use image, but the current usage needs some work:

2 GA-reviews for an article with 5 fair-use images did not even comment on this aspect. But that's a problem outside of FAC and certainly not the nominators' fault. GermanJoe (talk) 13:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Looking very strong. A few comments:

  • "Muganga pleads mercy" - I've never heard the phrase "plead mercy"- is it definitely standard English? If so, I'm happy for it to stay.
  • Is Coeurs Vaillants notable? Don't be scared of redlinks!
  • I assume it was originally published in French? I ask because you don't mention translation with the syndication.
  • Again, is Henry de Doncker notable?
  • "English publishers stubbornly refused to publish" I think calling it "stubborn" is a little judgemental.
  • "its controversial content" - What content specifically?
  • "while Tintin was portrayed throughout as a Scout, reflecting Hergé's "moral debt" to Wallez" I don't really understand what is meant here.
  • The Simon Kuper quote seems a little tacked-on; I think it would fit a little better in the first paragraph in the section
  • "In November 2011, UK bookseller Waterstones" Funny little point, but at that stage, the shop was still called Waterstone's (with an apostrophe)

The prose is generally excellent, but I am a little concerned about some of the images. (I now see that GermanJoe has raised basically the same concerns above- I endorse Joe's comments. J Milburn (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]

Generally a great-looking article, and I'm sure I'll be happy to support once these issues are dealt with. J Milburn (talk) 16:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Previously the article had no image reviews, now it has two :). No worries, and i agree with deleting the old fair-use versions (i guess, it can be done by adding "subst:furd", even if it's not a reduction). GermanJoe (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments J Milburn! I have linked to Coeurs Vaillants and specified that the story was first serialised in French. I think it worth including the name of Henry De Donkcer, but not worth linking it, as (as far as I am aware), he did nothing else to achieve notability in his life. I agree that "stubbornly" shouldn't be in there (I don't think that it was my addition in the first place), so I've removed it. I've replaced "controversial" with "alleged racist". I've tried to clarify the "reflecting Hergé's "moral debt" to Wallez" sentence. I've moved the Simon Kuper quote as you have suggested, and altered the spelling to "Waterstone's". Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support, on the condition that the source check comes back OK. I'm satisfied with the resolution of the issues I raised, confident that the small fixes recommended below can be looked into. J Milburn (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have also removed the two images that the two reviewers above deem to not be Fair Use. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - tagged the 2 images and one old version of a valid fair-use for deletion. They are usually only deleted after a week (at 19 August), if you still need them for other purposes and want to change the tag and FUR. GermanJoe (talk) 12:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Updated status on my review (all OK), could you clarify the minor mismatch 1931 <-> 1932 in the caption and summary of the "Opening" image? GermanJoe (talk) 12:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Its 1931; "1932" was probably a silly error on my behalf. Thanks for your review GermanJoe; much appreciated! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Cliftonian

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Resolved comments from Cliftonian
This looks pretty promising. Well done so far! Here are some pointers I hope will help on the way to FA status.
Infobox
Lead
Synopsis
History—background
  • When did Hergé start work at Le Petit Vingtième?
  • "of fictional Belgian reporter Tintin" again, I think "of the fictional Belgian reporter Tintin" is better. I would even favour a reword to "revolving around the exploits of a fictional Belgian reporter named Tintin"
  • "Wallez insisted he write a story set in the Belgian Congo" Did he insist he write the Congolese story instead of the American one, or simply that a Congolese story be produced? If the former, I would reword to "Wallez insisted that he instead write ..."
  • "the Belgian Congo (modern-day Democratic Republic of the Congo), then a part of the Belgian Empire" Kind of clunky; maybe reword to "the Belgian Congo, then a Belgian colony and today the Democratic Republic of the Congo"
  • "Belgian colonial regime" — "regime" is, to me, a loaded word that implies illegitimacy, oppressiveness and general negativity. I think "He believed that Belgian colonialism needed promotion" or "He believed that the Belgian colonial government needed promotion" would do just as well
  • "when memories 'were still fairly fresh' of the publicised 1928 visit to the colony by the Belgian King Albert and Queen Elisabeth" I presume this visit was considered a positive thing? A few words of explanation would help here
  • "He already had some experience in illustrating Congolese scenes; three years previously, Hergé had provided two illustrations for the newspaper that appeared in an article celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of Henry Morton Stanley's discovery of the Congo" I would recommend rewording to something like "He already had some experience in depicting Congolese scenes; three years previously, when Le Petit Vingtième [or was it Le XXe Siècle itself?] published an article commemorating 50 years since Henry Morton Stanley's discovery of the Congo, Hergé had provided two illustrations". Or something like that
  • "Hergé depicted a native Congolese individual bowing before a European colonialist" — "individual" is not necessary ("a native Congolese" would do just as well) and why not just "before a white man" or "before a European"?
  • "almost solely on a single source" I think "almost entirely" would be better
  • "he used limited source material to learn about the country and its people" I think the tail end of this ("to learn about the country and its people") could be clipped without affecting the meaning
  • "from the 'Jungle Jim-type serials'" where is this quoted from? what were "Jungle Jim-type serials"? half a sentence of background here and an attribution for the quote would help
    • This is a quote from Lofficier and Lofficier 2002, which is used as a source straight after. If I'm perfectly honest, I don't fully understand what they are, hence why I chose to simply quote the source here, Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "seeing the Blacks as big children" Why does "Blacks" have a capital "B"? I guess it is in the source like that but I still find it quite jarring
History—Original publication
History—Second version
  • "visually fitted in" maybe "fitted in visually"
  • "the new Tintin stories that he was creating" maybe "his newer Tintin stories"
  • "Tintin in the Congo was one of these books" maybe clarify, "Tintin in the Congo was one of the books that was redrawn"
  • "Hergé cut the page length down from 110 plates to the standard 62 pages, as suggested to him by the publisher Casterman. He also made several changes to the actual story, cutting many of the references to Belgium and colonial rule" maybe merge these two sentences ("Hergé cut the page length down from 110 plates to the standard 62 pages, as suggested to him by the publisher Casterman, and also made several changes to the actual story, cutting many of the references to Belgium and colonial rule")
  • "a more plausible"—is this in the source?
  • "watching a crowd surrounding Tintin as he boards a train and commenting that it "Seems to be a young reporter going to Africa..."" slightly clunky. maybe "watching a crowd surrounding Tintin as he boards a train. "Seems to be a young reporter going to Africa..." one of them comments"
  • "In the same frame, Hergé also inserted illustrated depictions of both himself and his friend Edgar P. Jacobs (who was the colourist who worked with him on the book), as members of the crowd seeing Tintin off." maybe "In the same frame, Hergé inserted illustrated depictions of himself and his friend Edgar P. Jacobs (the book's colourist) into the crowd seeing Tintin off".
History—Later alterations and releases
  • "When The Adventures of Tintin's Scandinavian publishers first released Tintin in the Congo in 1975" Maybe "When Tintin in the Congo was first released by the series' Scandinavian publishers in 1975"
  • "to page 56, where Tintin drills a hole into a live rhinoceros, fills it with dynamite, and blows it up" I don't think they objected to the whole page, did they? Just the scene where this scene occurs. Perhaps clarify to "to a scene on page 56, wherein Tintin drills a hole into a live rhinoceros, fills it with dynamite, and blows it up"
  • "more suitable for their young readership" why not just "more suitable for children"?
  • "the scenes of animal abuse and big game hunting" Describing Tintin's activities in the book as cruelty to animals in Wikipedia's voice could be a NPOV problem. Perhaps just "the scenes of big game hunting" or "come to regret the scenes of big game hunting in the work, which he saw as animal abuse"
  • "stated his belief that, by publishing the original 1931 black and white edition, it would cause less controversy than its later 1946 counterpart would" Maybe "stated his belief that publishing the original 1931 black and white edition would cause less controversy than releasing the 1946 colour version". Or something
  • "the last of The Adventures of Tintin was published in English" I get what you are trying to say but this is not quite clear. Perhaps reword to "an English edition of Tintin in the Congo was finally published in the United Kingdom; despite being the second book in the series, it was the last to be released in English". If the source supports this, of course
  • Does this mean it wasn't translated into English until the 1980s?
  • "appeared in English in 2005" In the UK or the US (or elsewhere?) I guess the UK, right?
Critical analysis
  • does "Scout" need a capital S? If you're referring to Boy Scouts (or similar), why not wikilink?
  • ""nothing spectacular" with some "incredibly cumbersome" monologues, but he thought that the illustrations were "a bit more polished" than in Tintin in the Land of the Soviets" slightly reword—"nothing spectacular, with some "incredibly cumbersome" monologues, but that he thought the illustrations "a bit more polished" than those in Land of the Soviets"
  • "but parodied past European militaries" perhaps "but a parody of past European militaries"
  • "In contrast" perhaps "By contrast"
  • "having no plot or characterisation" clarify that this is his opinion only; "having, he said, no plot or characterisation"
  • "being "poorly drawn" and "largely plot-free"" I would change to "being, in his opinion, "poorly drawn" and "largely plot-free""
  • Farr believed that the 1946 colour version was a poorer product than the black and white original, having lost its "vibrancy" and "atmosphere" with the new depiction of the Congolese landscape being unconvincing, appearing more like a European zoo than the "parched, dusty expanses of reality." I would split this up. "Farr saw the 1946 colour version as poorer than the black and white original; he said it had lost its "vibrancy" and "atmosphere", and that the new depiction of the Congolese landscape was unconvincing and more like a European zoo than the "parched, dusty expanses of reality"."
  • "Commenting on Tintin's exposure of Muganga as a fraud, McCarthy compared the scene to that in which the character of Prospero exposes the magician in William Shakespeare's The Tempest" Why not simplify to "McCarthy compared the scene where Tintin exposes Muganga as a fraud to that in in which the character of Prospero exposes the magician in William Shakespeare's The Tempest"
Criticism—racism
  • "it was only following the collapse of European colonial rule in Africa from the 1950s to the 1970s that typical western attitudes towards Africans became more positive" Perhaps "it was only following the Wind of Change and decolonisation, which occurred during the 1950s and 1960s, that Western attitudes towards indigenous Africans shifted"
  • "Instead, Assouline claimed that Hergé" reword to "Assouline claimed that Hergé instead"
  • "Thompson claimed that the book remained hugely popular in both the Belgian Congo and, after it achieved independence in 1960, in its successor nation-state, Zaire" maybe reword to "According to Thompson, the book remained hugely popular in the Congo even after its independence in 1960". Zaire wasn't the name for another few years, so the old wording is a bit misleading
  • "In July 2007, human rights lawyer David Enright" I would make clear that he's British. "In July 2007, the British human rights lawyer David Enright"
  • "with his black wife and two sons" Mentioning the colour of his wife could be seen as racist. Why not just "with his family" or "with his wife and two sons"?
    • I personally was uneasy with including their racial identity, but the source did so, and I though that it might be of some relevance. However, I'd personally rather remove it, and seeing as you agree, I'll take that as confirmation! Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it contained "hideous racial prejudice" by depicting Congolese who "look like monkeys and talk like imbeciles."" why not "it contained "hideous racial prejudice" and depicted Congolese who "look like monkeys and talk like imbeciles".
  • "attempts at banning the book" → "attempts to ban the book"
  • 4000% should be 4,000%
  • "only permitting access by appointment" perhaps "permitting access only by appointment"
  • "the book's publishers Casterman and the Moulinsart company which control Hergé's estate" should be a comma before "which". also, do both the companies control Hergé's estate, or only Moulinsart (I presume the latter?) If so, it should be "controls"
  • "historical authors like Charles Dickens or Jules Verne" I would reword to "historical authors, such as Charles Dickens and Jules Verne"
  • "In February 2012, the court ruled that the book would not be banned. It was "clear that neither the story, nor the fact that it has been put on sale, has a goal to ... create an intimidating, hostile, degrading, or humiliating environment" and therefore did not break Belgian law" Maybe reword to "The court ruled in February 2012 that the book would not be banned, deciding that it was "clear that neither the story, nor the fact that it has been put on sale, has a goal to ... create an intimidating, hostile, degrading, or humiliating environment", and that it therefore did not break Belgian law"
  • "South African comic writer Anton Kannemeyer has parodied the perceived racist nature of the book in order to highlight the continuing racist undertones of South African society. In his Pappa in Afrika (2010), a satire of Tintin in the Congo, he portrays Tintin as a white Afrikaner with racist views of the indigenous people." A few issues here
Criticism—hunting
  • "Tintin in the Congo shows Tintin taking part in "the wholesale and gratuitous slaughter" of animals by shooting several antelope, killing an ape to wear its skin, ramming a rifle vertically into a crocodile's open mouth, injuring an elephant for ivory, stoning a buffalo, and (in earlier editions) slaying a rhinoceros with dynamite" Who describes it as "the wholesale and gratuitous slaughter" of animals? Better to describe all of these things first, then say "X describes all this as "the wholesale and gratuitous slaughter" of animals"". Also make clear that he doesn't just kill the rhinoceros with dynamite, he actually drills a hole in it, drops the dynamite in and blows it up from the inside. Even for somebody like me this seems a tad excessive!
References
  • Looks okay to me
Categories

I hope this helps on the way. Let me know if there's anything I can do to lend a hand, and well done again for your work so far on this excellent article! —Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Cliftonian! Looks like I've got quite a lot to look through here! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just want to say a big thank you to you, Cliftonian, as I think that your comments have made a major positive contribution to this article! Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's really no problem Midnight, I'm glad you found them helpful and very much like the way the article is shaping up now. I'm happy to back this now for FA, and have supported above. —Cliftonian (talk) 23:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FunkMonk

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I'll add some comments as I read along. FunkMonk (talk) 03:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the summary, why is there a single direct quote form the dialogue? Seems a bit arbitrary: "and a local woman bows down to him, saying, "White man very great! Has good spirits ... White mister is big juju man!"
  • What is the meaning of this: "tarantara, tarantaraboom"
  • "Henry Morton Stanley's discovery of the Congo" ... River?
  • "Hergé biographer Pierre Assouline believed that Hergé's drawing became more assured throughout the story without losing any of its spontaneity." In which version?
  • " Philippe Goddin thought the work to be "more exciting than ever" Ever? In relation to what?
  • the infobox only lists Egmont as the publisher, what about Casterman?
  • "which contain similar stereotypes of non-Caucasian ethnicities." Link to "Caucasian race", or simply write white instead? The term is not widely used outside the US, it seems.
  • I'm not sure. I tried to find something and couldn't. I think it would be enough just to do as you said originally and say it was one of the few not made for TV. Incidentally, I found this feature interesting. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Heheh, nice. Around here, they sell tiny Tintin figures for huge sums of money. "Hand painted" for sure, but I bet these are a lot cheaper, and a lot more work gone into making them. FunkMonk (talk) 07:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there FunkMonk, and thank you for commenting. In regard to the singular quote from the book in the synopsis, I included it so as to give an example of the sort of patronising attitude towards the Congolese that is exhibited throughout the comic. I can understand the argument that it is arbitrary, but I do feel that it has value for the reader. 2) As for "tarantara, tarantaboom", I think it refers to the Abbé making a big scene out of his views on the issue of colonialism in the Congo, but I am not entirely sure. 3) I'm just going by what the source said here, and it stipulates "Congo"; which I assume refers to his discovery of the area that we now call "the Congo" (and not the area of the historical Kingdom of Kongo, which is of course in modern Angola). 4) the first version, presumably. I will make that clearer in the text. 5) In relation to the earlier Adventures of Tintin (i.e. Tintin in the Land of the Soviets). Again, I shall try and make that clearer. 6) Very good point, I shall make the correction there. 7) Very well, "white" it is. 8) The problem is in finding a reference that actually states that; if we have one, then of course I shall use it, but unfortunately I am unaware of one. Kind regards, Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixes look nice. If "tarantara, tarantaraboom" means nothing to any of us, perhaps it won't mean anything to the average English speaking reader? In that case, seems it could be cut without losing anything. But perhaps someone else can chime in? FunkMonk (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I presumed it was supposed to be an onomatopoeic fanfare of trumpets, with a bass drum at the end. —Cliftonian (talk) 01:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Nice article, hope there will be more like it. The issues I raised that could be fixed have been fixed. The remaining are mainly due to the sources themselves being unclear, which is not Midnightblueowl's problem. FunkMonk (talk) 19:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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