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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 18 May 2023 [1].

Thomas A. Spragens

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Nominator(s): PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky (my second such FAC nomination), who oversaw the college from the late 1950s until the early 1980s. After working for the government during World War II, assisting several presidents of Stanford, and leading Stephens College for five years, Spragens took the Centre job and kept it for 24 years. He oversaw integration of the college and the merger with the nearby Kentucky College for Women, nearly doubled the number of students and faculty, lessened the intense ties between the school and the Presbyterian Church, oversaw construction and upgrades of several campus buildings, and helped to start a collegiate athletic conference. Many thanks go to Rockhead126 for finding and uploading an image of the subject. I'd be grateful to receive any and all feedback! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:31, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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I reviewed this for GA and remember thinking it was in pretty good shape. Some comments:

  • "was an American administrator and a figure in higher education". He doesn't have a particularly easy career to summarize, but I think the second half of this is unnecessarily vague. I took a look at Andrew Sledd, also an FA, and at John C. Young (pastor); they have "an American theologian, university professor and university president and "an American educator and pastor who was the fourth president of...". Could we go with "educator and the 17th president of..." here? That seems the highlight, and the other roles are all covered in the first paragraph of the lead.
  • "it also led to chapel becoming optional for students": suggest "it also led to attendance at chapel becoming optional for students", assuming that's what's meant, and a similar change where this is mentioned in the body.
  • I recall asking you to remove some "also"s in the GA review; I think there are still too many. When the prose is clearly a recounting of events or achievements, "also" isn't necessary -- the reader already expects that each sentence is adding something to the list. I would cut the second and third instances in the lead -- the second doesn't add any information, and the point of the third, in "During his time at Centre, Spragens was also involved in several other organizations and pursuits", is already conveyed by "other". Looking at that sentence, though, I think you could cut it completely -- it's a topic sentence for the list of Spragens' roles, and I think it would be more concise to just start with "He was selected by two governors..."
  • "Spragens was also an effective fundraiser for the school, as he made it one of his top priorities upon taking office, and his Fund for the Future Campaign ultimately raised $34 million for the college." This is a bit imprecise. "As" connotes causation here, but he wasn't effective because he made it a priority. However, I looked at the source and it doesn't really say he made it a priority; it says he played a major role in it which is subtly different. Perhaps just mention his success?
  • "He attended Lebanon High School and was recruited by then-president Charles J. Turck to attend Centre College": just curious here: there's no mention of a sporting talent of the kind that might get a high-school student recruited these days. Why would a college president attempt to recruit a high school student? Was that (is that) normal behaviour in US colleges?
    • I admit the circumstances were quite unusual - nowadays recruitment on the part of a college president would be very strange as well. In Spragens's situation, him and three of his classmates who were in an all-male singing quartet who had some regional recognition, and Dr. Turck spoke with them to see if they would attend Centre to succeed the "Centre College Quartet", all four members of which were seniors at the time. Spragens's three friends went to Centre but Spragens opted for UK instead. The info is in the second paragraph of page 2 of the source; I would have quoted it here but I didn't want to re-type the whole paragraph. If you think adding the reason behind this recruitment to the article would be helpful, I can do that. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Up to you -- I think the story would add a bit of colour. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I agree, I've added it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:16, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After the war's conclusion, Spragens left his government positions in favor of a role at Stanford University. Beginning at Stanford in summer 1946, he worked as an assistant to..." Could be more concise. Suggest "In summer 1946, Spragens left his government positions to work at Stanford University as an assistant to...".
  • And I would make it "assistant to the college president" just in case a reader unfamiliar with US college terminology thinks this refers to Harry Truman.
  • Is there a suitable link for "Synod of North Carolina"? Or for "Northern Synod of Kentucky"?
  • There's nothing about how he got hired at Centre -- if the sources don't cover it there's nothing you can do but I thought I'd check.
    • CentreCyclopedia doesn't say anything specific, nor does his interview (FN 2) or the Weston book. Everything I've seen just says he "accepted an invitation" or some variation of that wording. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    This article, which continues here. The use of CCTV for instruction while at Stephens seems prominent and might be usefully added to the discussion of his time at Stephens. Wehwalt (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have added information from both parts of that article. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 00:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early in his term" is vague, which would be OK, but the next sentence starts "The following year", so presumably we don't need to be vague?
    I have looked up the specific year and added it in place of "Early in his term". PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This change was received well by much of the campus community." The source is not neutral, so I would suggest adding this to bolster it.
  • This could be used to give the date of Walker's hiring.
  • "This plan was met with widespread praise, including from The New York Times." I don't think the source is neutral enough for this. I would suggest digging up the NYT clip to support this if you want to keep it. If the source gives details I can probably find it for you if you don't have access.
  • "raised nearly $34 million for the college": the source has "about" so I would stick with that -- we've no way of knowing if it was just over or just under.
  • "In addition, Centre was selected to obtain a chapter of the Phi Beta Kappa honor society, of which Spragens himself was a member." Wordy; how about "A chapter of the Phi Beta Kappa honor society (of which Spragens was a member) opened at Centre during Spragens' tenure"?
  • I don't think we need the mention of Catharine's death.
  • "the college's enrollment nearly doubled, from 380 students to 700, and the size of its faculty followed the same trend": any reason we can't give the numbers for the faculty?
    • The Kleber source, which I used for this information, gives exact student numbers (During his presidency, Spragens increased the size of the student body from 380 to seven hundred...), but doesn't give any faculty specifics (...more than doubled the size of the teaching faculty...), so I tried to integrate this information as best I could. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I'll have a think about other ways to phrase this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Just an update to say that I found a source with faculty numbers so I have added those. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:02, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a member of committees in Danville's First Presbyterian Church": I think this is too minor to be worth mentioning.
  • "This came to fruition in 1969, when the college": I don't think we need the first phrase; it's connective tissue which the reader doesn't need. Suggest just "In 1969, the college..."
  • "He is largely credited for his successful fundraising efforts and for the numerous buildings that were constructed during his presidency": I don't know what "largely credited" means.
  • "many of the students formed committees and teaching groups among themselves": doesn't seem relevant to this article.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:09, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: thank you for the review! I have responded to your comments. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have struck most; there are a couple of replies above. I'll be traveling for a couple of days and may not respond quickly till Tuesday or Wednesday, though I might have some scraps of time here and there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie I believe everything is now addressed! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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  • "During this time, he was selected to be a part of a commission that produced a report, "The Church and Higher Education", to the Synod of North Carolina, which was completed in July 1955.[7]" I would mention inline which church is being referred to, since you have not mentioned any great religious involvement.
  • The date he concluded his term at Stephens is mentioned in the infobox but not sourced in the text.
  • "resignation on November 16, 1981" it looks like he had already resigned, and this was just the date it became effective. This source might be useful if you wish to discuss the circumstances of his resignation. Also see here and this with [2] this its continuation. It strikes me that there may be details here you'd care to include. It just seems to me that given that his major claim to notability is his presidency of Centre, occupying 24 years, that more could be said than four paragraphs.
    • Many thanks for linking those sources; I have used those and some left by Rockhead126, and had another look through Newspapers.com myself in order to add more information and bring the article up to par with respect to the comprehensiveness standard. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's it for now. I'll look in on it again when you're ready.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt I believe it's ready for another look! Thank you for your comments thus far. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:50, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He enrolled in, and attended, the University's College of Commerce (now the Gatton College of Business and Economics) for a year and a half, but afterwards transferred to the College of Arts and Sciences and majored in economics.[2]" The source is from 1982. Can it validly tell us what the present name of the college is?
  • "At Stephens, he implemented a plan which saw the use of closed-circuit television as an aid within classrooms, for which the school received "wide notice".[3]" I would, instead of "as an aid within classrooms", which reads awkwardly, say something like "an academic aid" or some such. You explain it in the next sentence.
  • "He was a member of the North Central Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools ..." he was or the school was? If the latter, so what?
  • He was, but I misread the source and he was a member of the above-named association's commission on colleges and universities. I have updated this in the article for accuracy but I can remove the whole bit if you think it is too trivial or irrelevant. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with the eventual goal of abandoning its current facilities and constructing new instructional, residential, and athletic buildings at a site nearby U.S. Route 63.[11]" Should "nearby" be "near"?
  • "which would prevent payment to players and eliminate gate receipts;[28]" I would end the sentence here. There would not have been payments to players as forbidden by NCAA rules (I know from that NYTimes article that Centre was an NCAA member). Do you mean athletic scholarships?
  • I recall this wording being similar to the one used in the source; I know that Centre did not give athletics-specific scholarships during the time Spragens was there anyway. I am headed to the library soon so I will double-check what the wording in that book was and adjust this sentence accordingly. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:36, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am having more trouble than anticipated getting my hands on the Craig source again (which was used to source this bit) so as I wait I have hidden the "payment to players" portion of the sentence. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:03, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence in personal life about his involvement on a higher education study committee might find a better home elsewhere.
  • The Legacy section seems to wander a bit. I might focus on his improvement of Centre and put the items such as Kent State chronologically in the recounting of his presidency.
That's it for now.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please ping me when you want me to take another look. Wehwalt (talk) 01:20, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Wehwalt: I believe it's ready for another look, just a few things that weren't done as recommended. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:06, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude

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  • "was an American administrator and the 17th president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky, from 1957 to 1981" => "was an American administrator and served as the 17th president of Centre College in Danville, Kentucky from 1957 to 1981" (as presumably he wasn't only an administrator for those 24 years)
    • This is much closer to how I originally had it phrased and I am hesitant to change it back for a few reasons: I recently stumbled upon EEng's essay Wikipedia:Location, location, location!, one part of which is about the "served as" construction and how it could almost always be simplified to "is" or "was"—I know this is just an essay but I agree with the sentiment—and I am hesitant to remove the comma after "Kentucky" as it should be there per MOS:GEOCOMMA. The two solutions that I have in mind are removing the date range altogether or changing "and the 17th president" to "who was the 17th president" - which do you think would work better? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "three-fourths of Centre's facilities" - I am assuming that saying this rather than "three quarters" is a American English thing?
  • "He was selected by two governors to be a part of commissions which studied higher education within the commonwealth" - as a Briton when I hear that last word to me it refers to the Commonwealth. I have to assume that here it means something else.....?
  • "Turck's hope was that the four of them would attend Centre and replace the "Centre College Quartet", the members of which were soon graduating" - as an irrelevant aside, speaking as the father of an 18 year old who is currently going through the agony and stress of applying for university in a country where the only way to get in is by being really really good academically, I find the notion that someone could not only get into university but in fact be personally sought out by a university just because he could sing well to be mind-blowing.......
    • It is certainly a little strange; then again, the fact that he was president of a semi-major liberal arts college for 24 years while only holding a bachelor's degree is also strange to me (and something that I had to double- and triple-check when I was first writing this article)! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:51, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and he began in this role on exactly one month later" - word "on" is not needed
  • You convert a couple of sums of money into current terms, but not others, even others in the same paragraph......?
  • "He was Presbyterian," - who was? The father, or the son who was the subject of the immediately preceding sentence?
  • "which required the president and most board members be Presbyterian" => "which required the president and most board members to be Presbyterian" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator comment

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This nom has stalled for a few weeks following the three supports above - pinging reviewers @SchroCat, Ceoil, and Tim riley: from my last FAC to see if anyone would be willing and able to give this nom a look—no sweat if not. Thanks all! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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I've been generally trying to review less so there's less coordinator recusals to work around, but I'll take on a source review here shortly. Hog Farm Talk 18:13, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "He had spent a total of five years as the Stephens president," - this is a bit odd here. You see to be using this 1952 source as back-calculating from the 1957 ending date, but we've already established that he started in December 1952, and the 1957 date of leaving Stephens is noted, so I think this can just go away
  • There very last sentence of the legacy section is unsourced, but the content appears to be covered (and sourced) elsewhere in the article, so that is probably fine. Just noting this for posterity as proof that I did look over this article
  • "Centre remained a member of the conference until 2011, when they left, along with six other SCAC schools and one independent school, to form the Southern Athletic Association" - not seeing where the source breaks down the conference memberships of the eight schools?

Other spot-checks are fine, waiting on nominator reply above (although I will be out of town for work and have only limited wiki time for next week). Hog Farm Talk 18:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: thanks very much for the spot checks - I have removed the quote from your first comment and added a source based on your third. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:56, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll follow up with this when I return home on Wednesday or Thursday evening. Hog Farm Talk 03:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
" Provost Edgar C. Reckard finished the academic year as interim president; Spragens was formally succeeded by Richard L. Morrill on June 1, 1982.[40] He worked as a fundraiser for, and advisor to, the college for six months following his resignation" - I'm not comfortable with the sourcing on this. The sources for this are from November 1981, and so can't provide assurance that the planned fundraiser/advisorship actually occurred for six months, or that Morrill actually took over on that exact date.
  • I have added a newspaper source from the day Morrill began at Centre (June 1, 1982) and added another source where Spragens says that he finished the 1981–82 academic year as a consultant to the college. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:38, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
" He hired Shirley Anne Walker, a French language professor who became Centre's first black faculty member on September 1, 1972" - I'm trusting that Weston supports that this actually occurred as planned, but the August 1971 linked newspaper story seems to indicate that this would have happened on September 1, 1971?
  • That is strange, and I double-checked the Weston source which does indeed say 1972, but the newspaper clipping is unmistakably from 1971, so I removed the Weston cite from that sentence and changed the year to 1971. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:27, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"His funeral was held at the First Presbyterian Church in Danville, on March 4, 2006" - same as above - the source can only support that the funeral was planned for that date, not that it actually happened on that one.
  • I am having trouble finding sources from after his funeral (I feel like it is at least somewhat unusual to run a news story about a funeral, though I could be wrong), but I feel that it would be a little silly to remove this altogether just for that reason. Do you have any ideas? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:29, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not seeing many more issues, will revisit after these are replied to. Hog Farm Talk 02:28, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: replies above. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:40, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PCN02WPS: - I don't really have strong feelings either way with the funeral. Pinging previous reviewers (@Mike Christie, Wehwalt, ChrisTheDude, and SchroCat:) to make sure that it's not a sticking point for them, but it's really a fairly minor thing. IMO the Walker issue is a little more of a weird one - we have one RS saying 1972 and an contemporary source saying 1971 ... I'd honestly suggest to avoid anything wacky to just go with the general flow of the 1971 article and say that she was the first black faculty member and was appointed in late 1971, as the newspaper source does support the appointment. Hog Farm Talk 23:49, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Responding to ping): Sometimes one can get around issues by saying "announced" or "scheduled" or something like that. I see the source actually says "memorial service", though; in the UK this would not necessarily mean a funeral, but rather a separate later service. Is it definite that it really refers to a funeral here? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm @Mike Christie I have replaced "on September 1, 1971" with "at the start of the 1971–1972 academic year", if that is an acceptable replacement to avoid mentioning a specific date. If I replaced "His funeral was held at the First Presbyterian Church in Danville, on March 4, 2006." with "His memorial service was scheduled for March 4, 2006, at the First Presbyterian Church in Danville", would that be good given what the sources say? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:19, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both of those work for me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:43, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm @Mike Christie Both changes have been made. (Sorry for all the pings!) PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with these changes as well. Hog Farm Talk 02:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SC

Putting down a marker. - SchroCat (talk) 08:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General
  • You've got several inflation equivalents there, which I always think useful. There is a bit of the MOS or documentation somewhere that says to match the precision of both figures (ie.$1 million should equate to $5 million, not $5.5 million). Details of how to tweak the inflation template are at Template:Inflation#Rounding.
Lead
Early career
President of Centre College
  • "can still be seen": There's a part of the MOS that says to avoid constructions like this – it's about them dating unless they are given a date to frame them. Depending on the date of when that source is, I'd suggest "were present into the 2020s" or whenever.
Legacy

Hope these help! - SchroCat (talk) 11:12, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: Thank you for the comments! I have changed all but one thing (clarification above), and rounded all of the inflation templates to match the number of sig figs in the source with two exceptions, which round to an inflation equivalent of "##.0# million" and therefore just show up as a round "## million". PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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A general observation, but particularly important regarding File:President Thomas Spragens and Harrison Salisbury at 1975 Centre College symposium.jpg I presume steps were taken to verify that the schoolbook bears no copyright notice? I would recommend that the ALT text be properly capitalized. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:22, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus As far as I can tell that picture was clipped from a newspaper, not a yearbook, though the several yearbooks that were used were all without a copyright notice (I went though and checked all of them, they’re available cover-to-cover digitally). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, a newspaper may be more likely to include some kind of copyright notice. @Nikkimaria:? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:55, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't appear to be a notice anywhere in the paper AFAICT, but any idea who the Roy Strickland credited in the caption is? Could this have been republished from somewhere else? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:18, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria I can't say for certain at this point, though based on the newspaper caption my guess is that he was employed by Centre in some capacity. If you're hesitant about this picture being included I can remove it. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria ? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest removal. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria @Jo-Jo Eumerus this image has been removed as requested. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 06:02, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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