Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/This Year's Model/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 17 July 2022 [1].

This Year's Model

Nominator(s): – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Elvis Costello's second album This Year's Model, which was also his first with the backing band known as the Attractions. Even better than his debut My Aim Is True, Model really shows the artist and band at their best in terms of songwriting and musicality. I've been rebuilding a few of Costello's albums from the ground up now and I believe this one is ready for the star. I'm happy to address any comments or concerns. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Realmaxxver

Adding comments soon. Realmaxxver (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Realmaxxver Would appreciate feedback sooner rather than later. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:13, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

working on it. Realmaxxver (talk) 22:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Realmaxxver – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 12:06, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from ErnestKrause

(1) Lead section. Use of the word 'viscious' seems a quote of Costello in his interview but you do not quote this word in quote marks. Suggest you quote it, or change it to 'cynical' or 'sarcastic' without quote marks.

Done – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(2) Side one section. It seems like a good idea to quote Elvis's opening words which kick off the song. Direct quote of the first 9-10 words before the band kicks in.

Its "I don't want to see you, I don't want to touch." Its surprising to see that none of the songs on this album have a Wikipedia page. It would be nice to see the opening lyrics from this song in this section. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(3) Packaging and artwork section. Its obvious, but mention that he is photographed in his signature black frame glasses.

Done – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(4) Critical reception section. It says that it was album of the year 1978 here, but its not stated as such in the lead section. Album of the year for the Village Voice is worth putting in lead section.

I mean "appeared on several year-end lists" I think makes that clear. And is it? Since it appeared on multiple lists stating an American publication and not the others seems odd to me. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You could select the top 2-3 in the list to add to the lead section at your option. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I personally feel like it would make it feel cluttered, as through my previous FAs, I was told to keep things simple and not over-indulge. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:07, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(5) The phrase "ranked as one of Costello's best...", may look better as, "ranked as among Costello's best...".

Done – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(6) No Legacy section? No one has ever tried to copy one of his songs with any success?

There is a duet with Elvis Costello & Billie Joe Armstrong doing No Action. Since there are no singles articles from this album on Wikipedia (other than Radio, Radio?), then it would be nice to see a Legacy section for the album and its hits, listing any notable covers which might be out there. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ErnestKrause Wasn't able to find much stuff on potential legacy, unlike something like Low. If we go on a song-by-song basis I guess we could add something like that, or Linda Rondstadt's covers, or even Olivia Rodrigo's potential plagiarism of "Pump It Up" for "Brutal". But then again, I'd want legacy or influence to about the album as a whole rather than that. Might be just a me thing. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 01:07, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That should serve as some start comments. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of optional further edits that I am listing above which you might add to the article, and I'm supporting this nomination. The article already has a top to bottom copy edit from its good GAN and the sources are well-developed and comprehensive. Supporting this nomination. If you have time to make some comments, then I've put in a nomination for the pop music group BTS for possible support/oppose comments from you if you can get around to it. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for supporting :-) – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:07, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Moisejp

Cool, this is one of my all-time favourite albums and I always had it at the back of my mind I'd like to expand it someday, but it looks like you beat me to it. :-) (Ha, it looks like I made two edits to this in 2006 but haven't edited it since.) I will try to review this soon. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 01:37, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, in my impressionable mid-teens I'm pretty sure it what sparked my interest in this was the 1987 Rolling Stone issue ranking it #11 best album of the last 20 years. I was instantly won over by its energy and catchy hooks, and have been a big fan ever since. OK, enough gushing, better get started with the review!

First read-through:

Critical reception: "calling the album "more potent" than its Aim". Should this be "its predecessor Aim" or is this meant to be part of the direct quote? If it's not part of the direct quote (this may be personal preference but) it feels a bit casual to me for an encyclopedia article to use a shortened version of the album name. But if you disagree, no worries (I know I've seen other people in Wikipedia do that kind of thing, so again, it may be personal preference).

Was a typo. Fixed that. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"In the midst of the punk movement, Christgau dismissed This Year's Model as punk rock, but acknowledged the genre's influence on the album and artist". How I naturally read "dismissed as" is meaning "dismissed as being" which I understand from the context is the opposite meaning to what is intended here. How you intend it is also a valid reading, but would it be possible to rewrite this so there is no ambiguity? Moisejp (talk) 05:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrospective appraisal: "finding the material "gall"... He considered the package "unfeasibly invigorating" following its "mild-mannered" predecessor, but commended Lowe's production." I found this confusing—not sure what the overall message is supposed to be. "Invigorating" has a positive connotation, "unfeasibly" perhaps not, "but...commended" suggests what follows is good and what precedes is bad. Also "gall" seems to be used as an adjective, a usage I'm not familiar with and didn't immediately find with a quick internet search. Also, while I'm in this section, "package" seems a bit of a casual usage to me (at first I assumed it was talking about the packaging). Could I suggest Jim Irvin's section be reworked? Moisejp (talk) 05:58, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish Model: This seems like a run-on sentence: "La Marisoul, a huge fan of Costello's, felt honoured to sing "Little Triggers", now titled "Detonantes", who approached the track by saying "Okay, I'm gonna live in these lyrics." Moisejp (talk) 06:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed/adjusted. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish Model: I wonder if it might be worthwhile to mention the release date of September 2021 earlier in this section. The start of this section mentions 2018 and then "led Costello to conceive reimagining the entirety of This Year's Model in Spanish". For three or four paragraphs, I was assuming this was shortly after, but finally realized it didn't happen for another three years. I guess I could have looked at the infobox, which I didn't. I don't know, it's just an idea to fit in mention of the release date earlier somehow, but if it proves not feasible, no worries. Moisejp (talk) 06:15, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to keep this chronological but I see what you mean. Do you think it should be worded like the start of a normal album article? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I won't have any time this weekend but hopefully can start my second read-through early next week. While doing the second read-through, I'll try to have a think about the question about the Spanish Model chronology. Thanks. Moisejp (talk) 22:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Starting second read-through:

Lead: "received critical acclaim, with many highlighting the songwriting, artist and band performances, and appeared on several year-end lists": Hard to parse and possibly ungrammatical. Is this supposed to mean "the artist was praised and the band performances were praised" or "the performances by the artist and band were praised"? If it's the former, "many highlighted the artist" seems questionable as a construction; if it's the latter, the sentence as a whole is incorrect with the verb "appeared" at the end. In any case, the parsing is ambiguous and I recommend reworking the sentence.
Background: "Wanting only himself on guitar,[5] the first person hired was Pete Thomas": Seems like a dangling modifier, as "wanting" is meant to modify Costello, but in this construction it modifies "the first person hired". Moisejp (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"On 3 October, the group embarked on another tour with other Stiff artists": the full wiki-linked name of Stiff Records appears after this instead of at its first mention here. Moisejp (talk) 04:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"In the meantime, Costello had amassed a large amount of new material": Mini-suggestion to changed "amassed" to "written" as it's more specific and may be clearer. Moisejp (talk) 04:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Like the debut, Lowe primarily wanted to capture the songs live with few overdubs ... Having frequently played the tracks live, the band were able to complete them with few overdubs": There is some repetition here; if both points are important, maybe try to find a way to to join these together. Moisejp (talk) 06:34, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"According to Thomson, the sessions were vibrant and productive.": Consider combining this more with what is said before and after this by Thomas and Béchirian. There seems to be some overlap, but "According to" somewhat isolates what Thomson said, as though others may not necessarily have agreed. Moisejp (talk) 06:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"a tour of America in January": Minor suggestion to change "America" to "the United States" (or "North America" if any Canadian cities were possibly included on the tour). Moisejp (talk) 06:45, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Elvis_Costello_Spanish_Model.jpg needs a more expansive FUR in order to justify having two non-free album covers. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nikkimaria How's that look? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely better, but now it's basically the same as the other cover - what's the rationale for including both? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:15, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BennyOnTheLoose

I seem to be 300km away from the nearest library copy of Perone's The words and music of Elvis Costello, but looks like it could be a valuable source, from the preview pages. If you have access to the relevant chapter, I think it can provide some further material. I can't say it's an essential source, but it does look like it might be useful. (I did have a browse of Perone's Elvis Costello: A Bio-Bibliography earlier today, but that has only a dozen pages of biography preceding lengthy discographies and a bibliography.)

I just bought the book cuz why not. Figure I'll be doing quite a few more of his anyways. I'll see what I can dim I'll probably be making quite a few new additions. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:45, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per our discussions elsewhere, I don't think that rocklists is a reliable source, as it's user-generated content. ("Please remember I DO NOT compile these lists, I am just the messenger!"] The NME list can be sourced to "Top 100", NME, 30 November 1985, page 12. Let me know if you need help on a source for the Mojo list.

Yes I will. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 01:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the sleeve notes as a source, except for the catalogue number, seems a bit like original research. I think the St Michael source (page 34) supports the content without needing to add the sleeve notes. The Attractions weren't named on the cover, but they were pictured (on the back, with Costello), I believe. Might be worth mentioning that, if it's in reliable sources.

They are not OR. Costello himself wrote extensive liner notes for the reissues by both Rykodisc and Rhino for all of his early albums, so they constitute WP:PRIMARY here. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 01:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I should probably have mentioned that the reference in question is to "Anon. (1978). This Year's Model (LP sleeve notes)" rather than to the later editions. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BennyOnTheLoose That was only to fix the error that comes with the template if there's no author. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's in reliable sources, consider mentioning:

there were videos for "(I Don't Want To Go To) Chelsea", "Pump It Up", and "Radio, Radio". (The "Pump It Up" one is mentioned in passing under the Spanish Model part of the article.)

Unfortunately none of the bios talk about any of his videos from Model nor Get Happy!! (maybe for Armed Forces but can't recall atm) – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Live At The El Mocambo was recorded on the US tour.

I'll see what I can find on that because that would be good to mention. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. How's that look? – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 02:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"This Year's Girl"/"Big Tears" was released as a single in the US.

Unfortunately none of the bios discuss non-UK singles either; definitely not as in-depth as Bowie (ugh). I'll check out some websites but I don't recall many mentioning them. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Found a book that does mention it. Will add later – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 15:27, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Clayton-Lea writes that most of the relationships in the songs concentrate on the artist failing to get the girl" seems quite a close paraphrasing of "..mostly concentrated on how Costello failed to get the girl" (p.38)
"provokes and invokes" - I couldn't see this in the St. Michael book. Which page is it from?
What makes acclaimedmusic.net a reliable source?

It's just an aggregate website similar to Metacritic. It's only being used for overall album rankings and nothing else. I used it in my previous FAs Hunky Dory and Low and they passed just fine. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason for specifying the nationalities of "American writer Jon Pareles" and " English writer Colin Larkin"?

Force of habit? I'll adjust. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from magiciandude

Missing chart info Spanish Model. Specifically, that it ranked on #38 on the Billboard Top Latin Albums chart (Source). EDIT: Also here's some more relevant info that might be useful such as it selling 2,000 album equivalent units here in the US (Source). Erick (talk) 20:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Withdraw request

Gog the Mild Hey Gog you can go ahead and archive this. I'm going on vacation in less than two weeks and was hoping this would be further along by now but with where it stands I'd like to just start over when I get back. Since I opened this I've also gotten a few more books I haven't utilized yet that would just change things a decent amount for commentators already here. So I'd appreciate if you or one of the other coordinators could just archive it for the time being. Thanks and appreciate it. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 20:14, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.