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The Love Club EP

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The Love Club EP (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Simon (talk) and Adabow (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about New Zealand singer Lorde's debut major release, The Love Club EP. The EP revealed Lorde's fear and nervousness of becoming a new artist. For the development of the article, I have found as many sources as I could, so I think that this article is fully comprehensive now. I would appreciate any comments/suggestions to help improve the article. Thanks, Simon (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WonderBoy1998

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  • Looks great. Some points- Okay now I think this article needs some work. No worries, everything can easily be bettered.
  • "Lorde admitted that she was inspired by hip hop music-influenced music, such as Lana Del Rey" - consider changing "hip hop music-influenced music" to "hip hop music-influenced artists" to avoid repetition of "music." Using "artist" will also fit better with Lana Del Rey. In fact, even the "music" in "hip hop music-influenced" is not needed. I'd change it to "hip hop-influenced"
  • "It features Lorde's "smoky" vocal delivery" - awkward wording. Consider changing to "Lorde's vocal delivery on the album was described as "smoky" by Nick Ward from The Nelson Mail. Another critic, Chris Schulz of The New Zealand Herald, commented that her voice "seems to come from someone twice her age.""
"According to Nick Ward from The Nelson Mail, Lorde's vocals on the EP are "smoky"" - These kinds of sentences look okay on good articles. For a featured article, you're gonna have to come up with a better, more refined sentence.
  • "Jim Pinckney from New Zealand Listener" - Try adding some variation. Perhaps "New Zealand Listener critic Jim Pinckney"
  • " are structure[d is missing] in a short story manner" - Consider changing to "are structured in the manner of a short story" or "opined that the structure of the songs is similar to that of a short story." Also don't use "Lorde's songs"
  • More soon --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 07:48, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The "short story" issue has not been addressed. Also see above for a new comment on the "smoky" voice thing. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 09:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes looking good --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 08:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it discusses Lorde feigning confidence" - the "discusses" just doesn't fit well, in my opinion.
  • "the two tracks" - you can remove "the"
  • "the former draws from" - draws what?
  • " Kanye West'" →" Kanye West's"
  • "high life" seems to have been directly borrowed from the Guardian. You can easily replace it with something life "criticize the glamorous lifestyle of the rich"
  • "The EP's title track" → The title track of the EP (try to avoid using apostrophes with nouns that are not proper nouns)
  • "Lyrically, the EP discusses "nervousness [Lorde] might expect for an artist conducting her first print interview and effectively beginning the process of unmasking herself"" - This sentence is contrived and changes the meaning of what the original writer meant. Reading the article by NZ Listener and specifically the sentence "Resolutely self-aware and confident, thankfully without the precociousness of talent-show youth, O'Connor displays remarkably little of the nervousness you might expect for an artist conducting her first print interview and effectively beginning the process of unmasking herself," it is obvious that the writer just meant that Lorde is confident and does not display nervousness. It does not seem to explain the lyrical theme of the EP.
  • "commercially release the EP for sales" - Isn't "for sales" redundant? Using the word "commercially" covers that
  • In the interview, Lorde's manager says "So initially we gave away 60,000 tracks." Do "tracks" equate to an entire EP? ("After being freely downloaded 60,000 times, UMG decided to commercially release the EP for sales"). Has the EP been downloaded 60,000 times?
I don't know whether individual tracks were available for download. I've replaced the citation used, which verifies that it was in fact 60,000 downloads of the EP. Adabow (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find it odd how the lead mentions that it had sold 60,000 in the US, but not that it had gone platinum in NZ and Australia
I support now, although I would still suggest improving the prose a bit and make it great. Right now it's just good. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 11:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from WikiRedactor

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  • In the infobox, I would drop the "At", remove the small text from "Morningside, Auckland, New Zealand", and place it in parentheses.
Done. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would replace instances of "the US" with "the United States"; I forget where I heard it from, but it suggested that "United States" be used as a noun and "U.S." be used as an adjective when describing something (i.e. the U.S. Billboard 200).
"US" can be used as a noun. See [1]. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you include an as-of date to verify its sales in the United States?
Done. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure how I feel about the word "admitted" in the "Background and production" section, how about something like "acknowledged", "commented", etc.?
Agreed; changed, thanks. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the "Composition" section, you mention that "Royals" was replaced by "Swingin Party" in the United States. If I remember correctly, this was done after "Royals" was released on Pure Heroine, is there any source you could add in that would verify this if this was the case?
I've see what I can dig up... Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've explained that the different tracklisting only came into affect in September 2013. Adabow (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the "Release and promotion" section, "Self-release (music)" should be relinked to "Self-publishing".
Why? Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the beginning of the "Reception" section, I would add a brief sentences about how the record received generally favorable reviews, just so it is available at a quick glance.
With only three critics mentioned, I feel that could be a bit dishonest to readers. There is a table with star ratings there, which offers a quick summary. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the track listing, can you reformat the title of the "New Zealand iTunes Store bonus track" so it matches the other two track listings?
I've slightly reworked the entire thing. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Everything else looks in good shape, after these comments are addressed I'll check back in! WikiRedactor (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@WikiRedactor: How does the article look now? Simon (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, happy to give my support! WikiRedactor (talk) 22:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Retrohead

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  • Background and production
Can we find a luckier solution for "spotted"? Perhaps "discovered", or if you have a better idea of your own.
I think "spotted" is the best solution here. Simon (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"started to write songs by herself"→"started writing songs herself"; better flow, I think.
Agree. Done. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately, the A&R paired Lorde with Joel Little–the A&R is MacLachlan, right?
Of course. As stated in the first sentence of the section "A&R representative" Scott MacLachlan. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, maybe you should replace "the A&R" with "MacLachlan". Surely there are other A&R officials from the label.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
MacLachlan is quite repetitive in this case. And in the article there is only one A&R listed. Simon (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps he would be a better solution? That ambiguous "A&R" can be any representative of Universal Music.
Done. Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
yet criticised its "bullshit" references–references to what?
Already stated in the section. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My bad. I wanted you to paraphrase the "expensive alcohol, beautiful clothes and beautiful cars" quote. It sounds like cliché.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to have this quote paraphrased. It's already got its meaning. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Lorde wrote the songs' lyrics"–only "the lyrics" would be fine
Fixed. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Release and promotion
This section reads much like a chronological table with all those dates and events altogether. Can you lessen this style of writing or overhaul the prose?
Nah, I just follow other recent FAs. I think it's the standard quality of album articles. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reception
This title doesn't seem to fit the content of the section. We are presented with the certification, chart positions, and accolades, contradictory to what is stated in the heading.
I think they are related to each other. Appearing on charts, receiving accolades and certifications are also a type of "reception". Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can we at least use sub-headings to differentiate the critical reception from the accolades and commercial success?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If so the sub-sections will be extremely short. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the Allmusic critic should be stated.
In the source given there is no name of the critic. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then perhaps you should say just Allmusic?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The "indeed" in Schulz's quote seems unnecessary.
Removed "indeed". Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can you paraphrase "fully formed"?
Since "fully formed" is quite misleading, I have removed the term. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Avoid mentioning the ratings in the prose, since they are already given in the table.
Per WP:MOSALBUM. Simon (talk) 02:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is no mentioning that the ratings should be presented both in the prose and table. My suggestion is of practical reasons, to avoid stating one information twice.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed AllMusic rating in the box. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My point wasn't to remove the Allmusic grade. The writing style should be consistent here. Either present all of the ratings in table, or avoid using table and write them in the prose. A mixture of those two is not acceptable; neither is repeating information at both places.
Is your point to remove the star ratings in the paragraph? Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Simon (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sales and certifications
The US certification is missing.
Nielsen SoundScan only list sales here. According to the RIAA database, the EP does not receive any certifications. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can we somehow notify that, lets say by putting slash or N.A. maybe?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying, but seems to be impossible. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Done. Simon (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional notes on prose
For example, you can say just "production" instead of "overall production" or "style" instead of "musical style" in the lead, hence this is musical item, right?
Additionally, the during is extra in "Lorde performed during various concerts"; it is commonly accepted to use "6× Platinum" over "septuple platinum".
"all of which were written by Lorde"–I assume "all of" can be easily dropped without changing the meaning of the sentence
"Bravado" is a chamber pop[8] and electropop song[10]–I think this is a case of WP:SYNTH. One critic says "this is chamber pop", another one says "this is electropop song", and you combined those two opinions into one sentence.

Please notify me if you have any questions related to the notes. I'll come back later to check the progress. Good luck.--Retrohead (talk) 13:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. They are highly appreciated! Regards, Simon (talk) 02:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as the majority of my concern were not addressed or explained. Though the article is well-researched and referenced, it has some issues with prose comprehensiveness that can not be overlooked.--Retrohead (talk) 12:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some of them have been addressed. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Retrohead, I have replied to your concerns. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Simon, my opinion remains the same. The prose is quite garrulous at few places, as pointed in the posts above.--Retrohead (talk) 19:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Retrohead, how about this time? Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
About the rating, you can go either as in Confusion, where the ratings are presented in the prose, or as I suggested, using table for the grades and avoid mentioning them in the text. Using a mixture of both, as in the present state, is not consistent.--Retrohead (talk) 11:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Retrohead: Okay, I got it! How about it now? Simon (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely see progress in the work, but I've got a few concerns left. The "writer at AllMusic" was returned although you've said above that you had fulfilled that note. I still think that "favourable review" is more suitable than the three star rating already written in the box. There's some paraphrasing left to be done, and here are some additional notes:
  • Little created the melodies–perhaps "composed" is a better solution?
  • After being freely downloaded–freely is extra
  • released digitally–digitally released
  • Lorde replaced Frank Ocean, at the–the comma is extra
  • At the 56th Annual Grammy Awards (2014)–you can say 2014 Grammy Awards, which is far simpler
  • As I previously specified, please try using "day, month, year" structures less frequently. Not that this is "wrong", but it certainly drags away the reader's attention.
I'll stop the review here. My overall impression, as WonderBoy1998 already stated, is that the prose maybe is of GA caliber, but has certain flaws that keep the article away from FA status. This article, according to me, shouldn't exemplify how featured albums should read, and shouldn't be placed in the same category as articles such as Marquee Moon or Are You Experienced, for example.--Retrohead (talk) 11:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, Simon, Retrohead, who's turn is it? Are we waiting on nominator actions or reviewer feedback? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:42, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: As Retrohead stated above, he said that he would not leave any more comments. Simon (talk) 08:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused why did Simon say the issues with naming the Allmusic writer and paraphrasing some of the pointed quotes were done, when they are obviously reverted to the previous state. Since the notes with the dating, sentence wording (predominantly at the reception section) and reference synthesis are still unresolved, my vote remains the same.--Retrohead (talk) 11:17, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The AllMusic issue has been done lately, and for the paraphrasing issue, I have responded to your comment. Best, Simon (talk) 09:08, 9 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FreshBlueLotus

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Lead

  • The Love Club EP is the debut extended play (EP) by New Zealand recording artist Lorde. ("the debut" or "a debut").
  • At the age of 12, Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan and began writing songs by herself ("and" inhibits clarity about age. In the Background and production – "Lorde was spotted … at the age of 12, ... At the age of 13, Lorde started writing songs herself. "). Recommend: "In her early teens, Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan when she began writing songs by herself."
  • In December 2011, MacLachlan paired Lorde with producer Joel Little and within three weeks, Lorde and Little co-wrote and produced all of the songs for the EP. Recommend: "In December 2011, MacLachlan paired Lorde with producer Joel Little and within three weeks, they co-wrote and produced all the songs for the EP."
  • In November 2012, the EP was released for free via SoundCloud. Recommend: "In November 2012, the free version of the EP was released via SoundCloud." (I agree it doesn’t match with "In November 2012, Lorde self-released The Love Club EP through her SoundCloud account for free download". The fact that "Lorde self-released" it should be mentioned.)
  • An indie rock-influenced electronica album, The Love Club EP received general acclaim from music critics, who praised its overall production and compared its musical style to works by Sky Ferreira, Florence & the Machine and Lana Del Rey. Recommend: "received a general acclaim from the music critics".
  • To promote The Love Club EP, Lorde performed during various concerts and "Royals" was released as a single. Recommend: "To promote The Love Club EP, Lorde performed in various concerts and also released "Royals" as a single."

Background and production

  • Lorde … at the age of 12. At the age of 13, Lorde … . in December 2011, when Lorde had just turned 15. Recommend: Try replacing the overemphasis on age with one term to indicate she was a prodigy; e.g. "A prodigy in her early teens, Lorde at the age of 12 …".

Composition

  • Critics compared the EP's musical style to works by Sky Ferreira, Florence and the Machine and Lana Del Rey. ("The" critics … ?)
  • Editor Jim Pinckney from New Zealand Listener opined that Lorde's songs are structured in a manner of a short story. ("The" editor … ?)
  • "Royals" and "Million Dollar Bills" are two tracks that criticize the glamorous lifestyle of the rich ("the" two tracks … ?)
  • The title track of the EP, "The Love Club", discusses the befriendment of "a bad crowd". (Is "befriendment" a standard word? Sounds a tough one for me; couldn’t find in my thesaurus.)

Release and promotion

  • After being freely downloaded 60,000 times, UMG decided to commercially release the EP. ("After a free download of 60,000, UMG …")
  • On 8 March 2013, The Love Club EP was released digitally in Australia,[20] New Zealand,[21] and the United States.[22] (club inline citations 20, 21, 22 at the end after the full stop.)
  • The compact disc (CD) edition of the record was released in New Zealand on 10 May,[23] in Australia a week later,[24] and in the United States on 9 July.[25] (again club inline citations 23, 24, 25 at the end after the full stop. "The compact disc (CD) edition" or simply "The CD version …"; CD is compact disc is fairly commonly known.)
  • "Royals" was released as the only single from the EP; on 3 June 2013, Lava and Republic Records sent the track to US adult album alternative (AAA) radio. (Are the two statements joined with a semicolon related?) Recommend: ""Royals" was released as the only single from the EP in the US. On 3 June 2013, Lava and Republic Records sent the track to US adult album alternative (AAA) radio." In lead "the US" – "In the US, the record charted at number 23", here "US"; maintain consistency.

Reception

  • A writer from AllMusic gave The Love Club EP three stars out of five, calling it "evocative", continuing to praise the albums "sultry, sinewy" sound and drawing comparison to the work of Sky Ferreira, Florence + the Machine, Lana Del Rey, and Grimes. Recommend: "The EP received three stars out of five from a writer at AllMusic who called it "evocative" and praised its "sultry, sinewy" sound while comparing it to the work of Sky Ferreira, Florence & the Machine, Lana Del Rey, and Grimes." (Sky Ferreira, Florence "&" the Machine – currently there is a "+" sign.)

A delight to read! --FreshBlueLotus (talk) 22:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I stumbled here from this article talk page, and thought I'd comment! Didn't have an account so created one! --FreshBlueLotus (talk) 08:50, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments are very appreciated! Thank you, Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SNUGGUMS

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  • The first instance of New Zealand should be linked, not the second
  • "Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan and began writing songs by herself"..... I don't think the "by herself" part is needed here.
  • "Lorde acknowledged that she was inspired by hip hop-influenced music artists"..... keep it simple- she took inspiration from hip-hop influenced artists.
  • "when she was on holiday after finishing a school term" → "during a school break"
  • "Ella Yelich-O'Connor" should link to Lorde

Not much to do here, really. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 05:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@SNUGGUMS: Done all. Simon (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now I officially support! SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 04:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Pedro

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  • Like Snuggums said, there's not much to be done here. However, I did note the absence of AllMusic from the ratings table, and I agree with some points that Snuggums noted (the ones that I commented on, above). I Support this nomination but I want to see those points fixed. pedro | talk 00:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

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Comments from Nikkimaria

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Images are appropriately licensed and captioned, though I note a MOS error in the sample caption. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How does it look now? Simon (talk) 06:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"21 second" -> "21-second" and it will be fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:53, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! It has been done. Simon (talk) 13:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Nominators, is this your first FAC? If so, we need a few spotchecks of the sources for accuracy and close paraphrasing. We also need a review of the sources for formatting and reliability. Graham Colm (talk) 10:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from EddieHugh

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Oppose I'm occasionally mystified by Supports based on prose when I readily find a plethora of problems that are largely prose-related. This is another instance. Examples:

  • "At the age of 12, [...] In November 2012, Lorde self-released the EP for free download via SoundCloud." The first bit gives her age but no date, whereas the second bit gives the date but no age, so the reader cannot know how much time passed.
  • "producer Joel Little, and within three weeks, the pair co-wrote and produced all of the songs". JL was a producer, but who produced this EP? (The use of "produce" is unclear – 'created' or 'acted as record producer'?)
  • "On 8 March 2013 the record was commercially released by Universal Music Group and Virgin Records." This is directly contradicted by the main text.
  • "was well-received by music critics". The hyphen should not be there.
  • "Lorde performed during various concerts". So the concerts weren't hers; she was just a second act or similar?
  • "Nick Ward from The Nelson Mail described Lorde's voice on the EP as "smoky", and Chris Schulz from The New Zealand Herald said her voice "seems to come from someone twice her age"." What's the relevance of this in the Composition section?
  • "For the US iTunes Store September 2013 edition of The Love Club EP, "Royals" was replaced by "Swingin Party"". This is repeated in the next section.
  • "Lava and Republic Records sent the track to US adult album alternative (AAA) radio". What does "sent" mean?
  • "Lorde replaced Frank Ocean at the Splendour in the Grass festival in Byron Bay, Australia". Why? What happened? And was this to promote the EP/single (this is not stated until much later in the para)?
  • "she held a concert at Le Poisson Rouge [...] and held a concert at Webster Hall in New York City. On 3 October 2013, Lorde held a concert at the Warsaw Venue in Brooklyn, New York". That's three uses of "held a concert" ("held" is an odd choice of verb when referring to the performer anyway) in one para.

As with earlier reviewers, I suggest that the article is closing in on GA quality. Not putting it through a GAR was a mistake, I believe, as it could (should) have been improved substantially at that point prior to further polishing for FAC. I recommend a GAR, as there's just too much that needs to be improved and this is not the place to do it all. EddieHugh (talk) 19:37, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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