Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Good Terrorist/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2016 [1].

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The Good Terrorist

Nominator(s): —Bruce1ee^talk 11:13, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

This is this article's second FAC, the first having only received an image review (thanks Nikkimaria).

I note that the images in this version are the same as in the previous FAC so that review will suffice here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:43, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

This article is about Nobel Prize in Literature-winner Doris Lessing's 1985 political novel concerning a naïve woman who moves in with a group of radicals in London, and is drawn into their terrorist activities. Currently a GA, it has been peer reviewed and improved on since then. I believe it should be featured as it meets the FA criteria, but I'm open to any comments/suggestions. —Bruce1ee^talk 11:13, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Comments by Tbhotch

• "by Nobel Prize in Literature-winner Doris Lessing" -> "by Doris Lessing". Adding awards to qualify people is not OK.
  • Done. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "Lessing was inspired to write the book" -> "Lessing was inspired to write The Good Terrorist".
  • Done. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "by the 1983 Harrods bombing in London by the IRA" -> Needs a re-write. Also "IRA" -> "Irish Republican Army (IRA)"
  • Reworded. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "Several commentators have labelled The Good Terrorist a satire" -> "Several commentators have labelled The Good Terrorist as a satire"
  • Done. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "Several commentators", "One critic", "Some critics", *"Some reviewers", etc. ->
  • Reworded. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "The Good Terrorist divided critics." -> Too short. Also,
  • Combined and reworded sentences. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• "and described the characters as too "trivial or..." -> when you don't quote the "too" to describe something, you are the one that's adding a point of view.
  • Removed POV "too" and reworded, in lead and the Reception section. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• I'm not going to continue with it (for now). I suggest copy-editing it first, and once it has been CEd you can contact me. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 22:14, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your comments. I've attended to your suggestions above – I'll give the rest of the article another look over tomorrow. —Bruce1ee^talk 18:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
    • @Tbhotch: I've done a little more copyediting, so when you get a chance, I'd appreciate another look at it. Thanks. —Bruce1ee^talk 12:27, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
      • Ok, I'll continue these days. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 01:20, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Plot summary

• "The Good Terrorist is written in the third person from the point of view of Alice" -> shouldn't it be "The Good Terrorist is written in third person from the point of view of Alice" or "The Good Terrorist is written in the third person point of view of Alice"?
  • Fixed. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• The paragraph "The abandoned house..." is too short.
  • I tacked the 1st sentence of the next paragraph onto the end of this one – it also deals with Alice and the house. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• "she can't" -> " she cannot
  • Fixed – don't know how I missed that one. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Background

• "By 1964 Lessing" -> By 1964, Lessing
  • Fixed. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• "[T]he media reported..." -> who said the quote.
  • Fixed (it was Lessing). —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• "She said she also knew who Alice's "boyfriend", Jasper, would be" -> Reword it
  • Reworded. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Genre

• The Good Terrorist has been labelled a "political novel" -> by... whom
  • Expanded a bit. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
• "William H. Pritchard took a harder line and questioned Alison Lurie's decision" -> Why don't you expand further Lurie's decision. Also, "harder line" sounds like a POV.
  • Reworded. —Bruce1ee^talk 08:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
• The Secret Agent -> The Secret Agent (1907)
  • Added year. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• "alluding to Carroll's Alice" -> Link Alice
  • Linked. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
• "Virginia Scott called..." paragraph is too short.
  • Expanded. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Themes

• "The American novelist Judith Freeman" is too short.
  • Expanded. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Critical analysis

• "Several critics have called the novel's title an oxymoron." -> "Several critics have called The Good Terrorist's title an oxymoron."
  • Done. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Honours and awards

• Too short, I suggest a merge with reception.
  • Merged with Reception section. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
• "Following Lessing's death in 2013," is also short.
  • Merged with previous section. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Publication history

• I don't know if the table is required
  • Removed. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

General

• "Harrods department store, the 1983 bombing of which inspired Lessing to write The Good Terrorist" needs a better caption
  • Reworded. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've started working through them, but I'll continue tomorrow. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:50, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Almost done – I'll finish it later. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

@Tbhotch: I've dealt with all your comments/suggestions, so, once again, when you get a chance, I'd appreciate another look at it. Thanks. —Bruce1ee^talk 08:06, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Sorry, pinging me is unavailable. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 03:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the Support, and for all your help and suggestions. —Bruce1ee^talk 04:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

• "feckless", etc.: See WP:INTEXT: quoted material needs to be attributed in the text. It's especially important to attribute in a plot summary, otherwise the readers won't know if you're quoting Lessing or some reviewer.
• There are too many quotations for some reviewers' taste, but I'm not going to make a call on this.
• Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 02:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Dank: Thanks for your support and copyediting. As you suggested, I've gone through the article and added in-text attribution where necessary. I hope it's ok now. —Bruce1ee^talk 08:27, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Comments –

• The main thing that jumped out at me when I read through the article is exactly what Dank mentioned above me: the large amount of quotations. I've come to expect a bunch of direct quotes in reception sections, but it seems like at least a third of the content in each section other than the plot summary consists of quotations. This is a large amount. I don't want to be the one who causes the FAC to not pass, but I do wish a few more of the quotes were summarized in original prose.
  • Working on it ... —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
    • OK, I've done some quote trimming, removal and converting to prose. I hope that's better. —Bruce1ee^talk 15:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• "and that she is not a good person, nor a good revolutionary." When there's a "nor" here, wouldn't the "not" be "neither"? That's how I've always seen FAC prose gurus handle such phrasing.
  • I think you're right – fixed. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• Plot summary: "only to become frustrated later by his aloofness and homosexual preferences." I hope you have a reason for saying "homosexual preferences" from the book, because there's about a 99% chance someone will leave an angry comment about that on Main Page day. Maybe just "homosexuality" would be better?
  • I changed it to "bourgeoning homosexuality" – he was exploring his sexuality. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• Background: IRA should have its first use be spelled out in the previous section, not this one. Once that's done, the link here can be removed.
  • Fixed. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• Critical analysis: The same "not ... nor" bit from the lead is here as well.
  • Fixed. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• Publication history: "A unabridged 13 hour audio cassette edition". "A" → "An"?
  • Changed to "An". —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• Also, there should probably be a hyphen in "13 hour".
  • Already fixed by Wavelength (thanks), but also have a look at the talk page here. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
• The last paragraph is a little one-sentence stub, which isn't optimal. Would it be possible to merge it into the preceding paragraph? Giants2008 (Talk) 21:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Merged into previous paragraph. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:37, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Giants2008: Thanks for the review. I've attended to the issues you raised, so when you get a chance, I'd appreciate another look at it. Thanks. —Bruce1ee^talk 15:25, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Weak support – I'm still not in love with the number of quotes, but that may just be how I feel personally. A good-faith effort was clearly made to reduce the quotation usage, and all of my other concerns have quickly been addressed. With that in mind, I'll offer a measure of support for the article. If someone more familiar with the typical structure of book articles than myself signs off on the number of quotations, than the closer should feel free to consider this a full support. Best of luck with the rest of the nomination process. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:11, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
      • @Giants2008: Thanks for your Support and suggestions. I'll have a look at trying to reduce the number of quotes further, but I'm reluctant to make too much change to the article considering the Supports it has already received were for earlier versions. —Bruce1ee^talk 06:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comments reading though now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:49, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Accompanying her is Jasper, a graduate she took in at a student commune she lived in fifteen years ago. - "fifteen years previously"?

Changed as suggested. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

why not just say "irresponsible" or "hopeless" or something instead of "feckless" in quotes?

Changed to "ineffective". —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

"'Roberta, a "comforting mother figure" --> why not just say, "the maternal Roberta"?

Changed as suggested. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Lessing called it "quite a funny book" --> needs dequoting, " Lessing called it humorous.

Changed as suggested. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

"' "pressed into conformity" --> needs dequoting, "coerced into conforming" would be one option.

Changed as suggested. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

"scorns their incompetence" --> needs dequoting, "derides/makes fun of/makes light of/highlights/dismisses their ineptness" would be some options.

Changed to "derides their ineptness"; also changed "selfproclaimed revolutionaries" to "self-styled insurrectionists". —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I read this some time ago on my smartphone while out and about and forgot to comment - a good read overall and comprehensive. I really think some of the quotes need to go. Many can't be removed but I think the ones I have highlighted above can, and possibly some others too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

@Casliber: Thank you for your helpful suggestions. I've attended to the points you raised, and replaced a couple of other quotes with prose. When you get a chance, I'd appreciate another look at it. Thanks. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:04, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Ok, nice work - support on comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:44, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

@Casliber: Thank you for your Support and suggestions. I appreciate it. —Bruce1ee^talk 14:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Coordinator note - I have requested a source review since I don't see one done. Also, Bruce1ee, since you haven't been at FAC in a fair while I will ask for a spot-check of your sources for any plagiarism or copyvio concerns. --Laser brain (talk) 23:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

• Looking over sources. Going off this version for ref numbering etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:28, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• FN 19 and 25, Boschman, Greene and Yelin need locations for publishers. all done now I see. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• FN2 used 10 times - true to source
• FN22 used once - true to source
• FN39 used 9 times - true to source

• Copyvio tool clear too

i.e. looks all in order. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Casliber: Thanks for the source review. Sorry, I jumped the gun adding the missing locations – I thought you were finished :) —Bruce1ee^talk 14:35, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

@Ian Rose: Thanks for the promotion, and for your copyedits on the article. I appreciate it. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:12, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.