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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 15:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Taiko

[edit]
Nominator(s): I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the set of Japanese percussion instruments called taiko. They have an ill-defined history in terms of their exact origins in addition to a mythological origin story. The usage of the instrument changed greatly through Japan's history, particularly just after WWII with the work of percussionist Daihachi Oguchi, who created a performance style involving several types of taiko and multiple players. This style is now very much the norm in taiko performance as popularized by groups such as Kodo. Construction of the drums and components of taiko performance are explored in-depth. The article also goes into detail about taiko outside of Japan (such as in Brazil) in addition to its relation to specific social movements as explored in contemporary academic literature.

As a note, when I started working on this article, someone left a long list of sources at the end in a further reading list which I have been paring down due to concerns about reliability of those sources, their accessibility (having checked worldcat.org), and relevance in an encylopedic context. There are many sources left, some of which I will be exploring at my library this month, but I believe the article is sufficiently comprehensive in its current state. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Short refs #39, 43, 91, 109, 116, 122 and 124 in "Citations" do not match their full reference entries in "Bibliography" (author's last name and year must be exactly the same). Consider installing Ucucha's script to check for errors in Harvard references, it'll highlight such problems in red - makes searching and fixing them a lot easier.
  • Formatting of pseudo-headers with ;header is discouraged due to accessibility problems (but I don't know how to avoid bloating the ToC here, maybe another reviewer has a good idea).
  • Duplicate header titles (got "history" twice) within one article should be avoided. GermanJoe (talk) 15:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Short refs #39, 43, 91, 109, 116, 122 and 124 - Done, thanks for pointing me to the script.
Formatting of pseudo-headers - Done These psuedo-headers under the "Further reading" section will be removed, along with most of the section, in the coming week after I've made a visit to the library to check out and incorporate material into the article that is useful.
Duplicate header titles - Done, header under the Hachijo section has been changed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 21:45, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you like, give me a ping, once the additions and structure cleanup are done and I'll do a more thorough read-through. GermanJoe (talk) 14:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@GermanJoe: OK, all finished. I don't think an extensive "further reading" list is necessary on the article because the range of sources directly cited is fairly broad as it is, so I've removed it with the understanding that I've tried to access as many of these sources as possible. I, JethroBT drop me a line 04:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • The "Zero" caption could be clearer - it's a bit hard to follow
  • File:Adolfo_Farsari_-_Dancing_Girl_Playing_Taiko.JPG should be life+100 not life+70
  • File:02_Taiko2.ogg: on what basis can the uploader release this file? What is the copyright status of the performance and of the composition being performed? That's a living composer and a fairly recent composition, so unless it's been explicitly released this is likely a copyright violation. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:25, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria::
Captions that aren't complete sentences - Done
The "Zero" caption could be clearer - Done
File:Adolfo_Farsari_-_Dancing_Girl_Playing_Taiko.JPG should be life+100 not life+70 - Done
File:02_Taiko2.ogg - The uploader, Teohui may have some affiliation with the group (see the infobox in this version of the ensemble's article). Scott Harding is the composer, though. I'll see if I can get in touch with the ensemble directly to verify its copyright status and if they indeed intended this to be released to the public domain. For now, I'll be removing it from the article. I, JethroBT drop me a line 21:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've contacted them, and am awaiting a reply... I, JethroBT drop me a line 18:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (part 1, lead)
The lead looks fine in general, but could use a bit of polishing:

  • "The process of constructing taiko varies between manufacturers, [but must include the making and shaping of a drum body, choosing a skin for the drum head, and carefully stretching the skin over the drum head to create appropriate tension.]" - this info doesn't look important enough for the first lead para (isn't it true for most drums with skins anyway?). Personally, I'd find a brief mention of the traditional lengthy skin preparation more interesting (for example).
Done, but I decided to depart from your suggestion to focus more on the length involved in the entire process rather than the skin specifically. (I'll be commenting in-line for my own convenience; if this is problematic, let me know.) I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... suggests ... influence" occurs twice in close proximity (not sure about a good synonym though).
Done. It seems fine to drop it the second time in relation to the Indian instruments and just describe them as similar (with an example) in the lead. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "historical evidence suggests that taiko ..." and "Archaeological evidence demonstrates that ..." - seem to refer to the same period, why are those periods mentioned twice? What is meant with "historical" evidence here, contrary to "archaeological"?
Done. I can understand the confusion here; my intention was for one to based on written accounts (i.e. historical evidence), the other based on actual found objects (i.e. archaeological evidence). That said, you are correct that "Historical evidence" could be either of these though, so I've changed the wording to "historical records." With regard to the periods being mentioned twice, I've rephrased this to say that archaeological evidence supports the notion that taiko were used in Japan as early as the 6th century CE. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In contemporary times, taiko have served [as the basis] for certain social movements ..." - confusing without more detail, how can an instrument be the basis for a movement? Or is "taiko" referring to "taiko performances" here? Also a bit vague.
Done. It is about performance, but only for the sansei and gender conventions sections. The burakumin section is more relevant to the nature of the construction process (because they work with leather). I've rephrased this to say that "taiko have played a central role" in social movements. If it would be helpful, I can provide examples of these in the lead. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...can be traced back to 1951..." - odd phrasing, events merely 60 years ago do not need to be "traced". His article simply states, he "invented" that style (source needed).
Done. Agreed, and I've changed the wording. There are lots of sources that say Oguchi invented it, and they are in the body. If you think this would be particularly contentious (it doesn't appear to be, based on my reading of the sources) I can source this if you'd prefer it. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...world-renowned ..." - a bit peacock-ish, probably better with an immediate source.
Done. It's not really necessary to qualify the group in the lead now that you've mentioned it, so I've just removed it. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other performance styles have also emerged from specific communities in Japan." - unclear, are those the same communities as the previous "social movements"? Also, could you name 1-2 notable examples here to give the reader a better idea of those differing styles?
Done. I've provided the examples. And no, the performance styles and social movements are not the same. Performance styles refers to the Hachijo-daiko and Miyake-daiko sections of the article, where as the social movements relate to the sansei, gender conventions, and burakumins sections. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider de-linking well-known countries (WP:OVERLINK), and linking Japan to "Japanese music" would be more relevant for the given topic. (Done)

Two quick non-lead points:

  • "Notable groups", "Notable performers" - lists with unclear inclusion criteria are discouraged. Suggestion: Merge both sections in one section "Notable groups and performers" with 1 paragraph for each. Try to mention only the most notable (atleast Japan-wide) entries or performances with a distinctive own style. Convert the list to prose and add 1 brief detail for each mention.
Done.
  • "Further reading" - completely optional (I know, it can be hard to pick), but maybe keep a shortened further reading section including only 1-2 of the most significant, helpful literature for each former sub-topic in one list. If it's not possible to have a fair selection of specialist books, maybe a few general standard books could be listed.
@GermanJoe: I'll need some a few days for the above two points. FYI, some of the groups currently listed there are not going to make the cut based on available sources. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't use graphical templates like {{done}} (see FAC-instructions) - hope you don't mind, that I fixed them. I'll need some more time to read through the main text - it's a really interesting, but somewhat foreign topic. GermanJoe (talk) 06:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, didn't realize it would be a problem. And yes, this is definitely a more esoteric topic, please take your time. I'll be pretty available for the foreseeable future, so I can quickly follow-up on your comments whenever you are ready. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (part 2, up to categorization)

  • Infobox - suggest removal of the list of musicians. Without detail this is just another arbitrary list (and the huge whitespace looks ugly). The section "Notable groups and performers" should offer this kind of information as prose.
Done, and agreed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider using {{TOC limit|3}} to hide level 4 headers from the relatively long ToC.
Done. I've also combined a number of sections that could reasonably go together to reduce the length of the TOC. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mythology "[One] mythological story ..." - are there other differing myths about this?
Done. There are not after some exhaustive searching for alternative interpretations or origin stories, so I've rephrased this accordingly. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In [one] interpretation" - again, any other notable interpretations?
Done. See above. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second and third paragraph need a final citation for the narrative.
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:46, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The statues show one player beating one head of the drum with the stick, and the other using their hand to beat the other head." - nitpicking, but ref #13 mentions only one of the statues. Could you double-check refs #11, #12 and #13 and clarify the number and posture of those statues?
Source #13 (transcript of a museum curator's talk at a conference) only mentions one, but #11 (from the book Drum: A History) and #12 (from the Tokyo National Museum) clearly discuss two figures. Based on the description in #13 (He is beating the device with a drumstick in his right hand. Judging from this figure, the drum appears to be a hip hand drum), she is probably talking about the figure on the left here in this image from the Tokyo National Museum. In any case, there do appear to be two figures relevant to the topic, one which is playing the drum with their hand, and the other with a stick. The current prose could use some clarity, so I'll fix that up. I'll wait for your response on this one in case there is anything else. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general, I try to copyedit a bit during reading. But it would be good, if a native English-speaker would go through the whole text aswell - my "German English" is limited and I have very likely missed some minor prose issues.

Your editor seems to add a lot of unnecessary whitespace, or it was already in an old article version. I removed most of it (afaik, such whitespace is against some obscure MOS guideline). I'll try to read a few more sections soonish. GermanJoe (talk) 01:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (part 3, remaining sections)

  • Drum makers " ... stating that their tradition of construction has remained the same for the past 400 years." - Is an independent source for this claim available? Unless the claim is absolutely uncontroversial, we really shouldn't use the company's own PR slogans.
Done. I've changed this to reflect that the company has been making taiko for 400 years; can't find another that states that their method is the same. I've added an additional source from the Chicago Tribune. There are several such sources for the former claim, so it seems solid. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Form "Some have argued ..." - Better to name 1 specific source here or specify the group with more detail.
Done. I've specified as needed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brazil "... some have estimated ..." - See above - if possible, a specific source for this estimate should be named.
Done. Specified as needed. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Multiple notes at one spot should be in ascending order (fixed all, just as info).
Done. Thanks for taking care of many of these. I only caught one other instance of this after reviewing it myself. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:32, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problems with the fixes for the previous comment sections, all Done except the open point about the statues' description.
I think I've clarified the whole issue with the statues. Some sources talk about two of the statues (both have drums), one just talks about one of them (the statue of the drummer holding the stick), so that's why there appeared to be a discrepancy at first. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:13, 29 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I copyedited several minor problems with formatting, ref order and the occasional odd phrasing. However, several sections still read a bit clunky and would benefit from more "professional" copyediting (aka not my skill level). The article contains a lot of interesting and well-researched content, but the prose needs a bit more work. GermanJoe (talk) 10:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • All above points have been addressed (Done).

I'll be glad to give the article another read, after more reviewers have taken a look for the mentioned prose improvements. @I JethroBT: - if you haven't done so already, you could try and notify some interested WikiProjects or reviewers with a neutral request for review. Unfortunately the article hasn't drawn much attention yet. GermanJoe (talk) 14:26, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@GermanJoe: Will do. Are there any sentences that strike you as potentially needing attention? I can take a look at these, even if you're not entirely sure how best to fix them. I, JethroBT drop me a line 16:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Looks like this part "The Template:Nihongo is the lead instrument of the ensemble." has been broken in some previous edit. Could you check that please? You probably know best, where to fix it.
  • Curly Turkey already improved several of the minor prose points. Such spots are really hard to find for a non-native English speaker, except for some vague gut-feeling :). The many necessary drum-related and Japanese terms certainly make it difficult in some sections to keep the prose accessible and fluent. I am sure, the remaining reviews will further polish other miniscule flaws.
  • I'll keep this on my watchlist - feel free to nudge me, if I don't update after the remaining reviews are done. GermanJoe (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (margin1522)
I will have more later, but a few quick ones.

  • After using {{nihongo}} once, could you use the {{nihongo4}} template? The little question marks seem a bit distracting.
Done. Thanks, I think you're right about the distraction element. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Usually we don't include the kanji for terms that have their own articles and have the kanji in the articles. Overall my impression is too many kanji.
Done, I've really reduced the number of kanji in the article based on this guideline. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Mythology section seems too long. We have two articles on this story -- Ame-no-Uzume-no-Mikoto and Amano-Iwato. I think the details could be moved there, and here it could be shortened to a couple of sentences about the goddess who danced on a barrel. That way it would fit comfortably into the next section, Origins. Also the first cite for this story (to the jazz musician) seems kind of casual. Would only the second cite be enough? – Margin1522 (talk) 22:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I had two citations there because mythology just seems like a general area where more citations of the same interpretation are better, but I've gotten rid of the first citation there. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • About Gunji Yoshu. Maybe this should be unlinked. Recently I read this article (without knowing it was up for FA review) and spent over an hour looking for the Japanese title. I looked everywhere and couldn't find anything except in Turnbull, who doesn't give the kanji. The quotes in Turnbull give the impression that it might be not a chronicle but a commentary on a chronicle. Anyway I don't know what this is, and would like to confirm it before using it. – Margin1522 (talk) 22:21, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done at least, unlinked. Margin1522, this war chronicle seems to be referenced in a few other places ([2], [3]). The kanji　for it are probably 軍事予習 or　possibly 軍事豫習, but I think it is definitely a war chronicle, not a commentary. I, JethroBT drop me a line 08:04, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Curly Turkey

[edit]

While I do speak & read Japanese and live in Japan, my knowledge of taiko is extremely casual—I'm checking prose and formatting rather than comprehensiveness or whatever.

General
[edit]
Lead
[edit]
  • often used to refer to any of the various Japanese drums: "often" and not almost always? I doubt an English speaker would refer to non-Japanese drums as taiko
    Done. We can probably drop the qualifier altogether and just say "it is used to refer to to." I've made this change. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • during the 6th century in the Kofun period: the Kofun period article says the period ended in 538; "during the 6th century"; do the sources specifically say the Kofun period?
    Yes "Kofun period" is specified in the the Tokyo National Museum article in reference to the statues, and from the Dean reference, p.: Two haniwa statues at the Tokyo National Museum exist from the Kofun period, a time of increased contact with China and Korea.. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I've tweaked the wording a bit. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • and both festival and professional performances: I can imagine professionals performing at festivals; would "concert performances" be appropriate?
    Done. Yeah, I think that's more precise language and have changed it accordingly. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:41, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In contemporary times, taiko have played a central role in social movements for minorities both within and outside Japan.: has this been a big enough deal (a big enough part of these movements) to make it lead-worthy?
    I do think this point is lead worthy, as there are a number of regular and academic publications that focus on the instrument in the context of social movements (not all are used in the article at this time due to access issues):
We could consider reframing these ideas in terms of ethnomusicology rather than the much broader idea of social movements. I, JethroBT drop me a line 21:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you have access issues with any sources, you should put in a request at the Resource Exchange—I've had surprising good luck there. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:09, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
These have been appropriately integrated. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Body
[edit]
  • The Nihon Shoki contains a mythological story: should probably let the reader know what the Nihon Shoki is
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her performance is considered to be the creation of taiko music.: considered so in the myth, or considered so by 21st-century Japanese?
Done. Appears to be considered so by present-day Japanese historians, and have noted this as such. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the Sengoku period, specific drum calls: what's the "Sengoku period", and when was it? Most English speakers aren't familiar with Japanese history. You could do something simple like "During the 16th-century [[Sengoku period|Warring States period]]" (while technically it was c. 1467 – c. 1603 I don't think you need to get that hairsplitting for the purposes of this article---we just need to orient the reader)
Done I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the Gunji Yoshu: do you know the kanji for "Gunji Yoshu"? I'm not asking for it to be put in the article, I just want to know---though you should probably describe what this was
Done. I've described it as a war chronicle per sources. Margin1522 mentioned this same question above— I can't find a source that specifies the kanji, but it's probably 「軍事予習」. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that's important-ish—if it's those kanji, then it needs a macron on "Yoshu". Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 09:26, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Folklore on Emperor Keitai offers a story during his reign: meaning the story was written during his reign, or takes place during it?
Done. Written during the 16th century, well after his reign (est. 507–531 CE) apparently. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've tweaked the wording a bit. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • One school of drumming for Noh theater: can we name the school?
Done. Malm described it as the Komparu school, no kanji given. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose 金春流? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:07, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all necessary, but I like to use the {{ill}} template in these situations to (a) direct readers to an existing interwiki article; and (b) encourage somehwat to translate that article by providing a redlink. If someone does create teh en.wp article, the interwiki link automagically disappears. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it doesn't take an undue amount of space, it would be good to give a brief description of gagaku, kagura, and the bon odori, and how taiko are used in them
@Curly Turkey: You have a good point here, but I am little worried about getting out of scope. Suggestions on where these sections might best placed? One the one hand, they might fit under the history section before the section on kumi-daiko, but they might also better fit under the "In traditional settings" where I can keep the short. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't thinking of anything particularly in-depth, just brief one-sentence-ish descriptions to orient the reader—the reader should only have to click through if they're interested in learning about the subject of the link in-depth, no to find out what it means. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Checking... Gagaku is contextualized decently well, I think. For the others, checking sources... I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:12, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • took them to Sado Island for training: is there any special significance to the choice of this island?
Checking... I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:36, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. There's a ton of detail that could go into this, about his travels through Japan and meeting other groups. His experience on the island appears to be most relevant though; additional details is more appropriate for a bio of Den Tagayasu. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:51, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their first performance occurred just after the group finished running the Boston Marathon while wearing their traditional uniforms.: meaning they ran the marathon in their uniforms?
Correct. I, JethroBT drop me a line 01:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kodo is the most recognized taiko group worldwide: is there a better source than a New York Times article from 1986 to back this claim up?
Checking... I, JethroBT drop me a line 01:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 22:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ugh ... this is exactly where I'd like to see some WP:BUNDLING. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Bundled. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I'm going to sound shitsukoi, but I really think doing this throughout will improve readability (though not a condition for FA). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some classic pieces that have emerged: "classic" might be POV
Done. This has been removed.
  • Many taiko are not tunable, and a drum with high head tension would counteract the slacking effects of humidity.: this is uncited
Done. I've removed this statement as I cannot find a source for the latter part; I've replaced it with a general statement that some taiko are tunable and other are not. I, JethroBT drop me a line 01:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many taiko are not tunable, and a drum with high head tension would counteract the slacking effects of humidity.: "would" makes it sound like conjecture in this case
See above. I, JethroBT drop me a line 01:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • that are stave constructed: is there something good to link to here? I have no idea what "stave construction" is
Not really— the difference is that some taiko are shaped from an tree trunk, and others are built using lengths of wood (i.e. staves). I've looked at the article on woodworking and related topics, but couldn't find anything sensible to link to. I guess we could just link to Stave (wood), but the article is not in a good way. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still link to stave---who knows, it could encourage someone to expand it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am astounded that {{convert}} handles shaku; the folk who work on that template deserve a round of applause---I have yet to find an edge case that thing couldn't handle
Yeah, I remember being pretty astounded at this, too. :P I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • numbered 1 to 5 with names: "namitsuke", "nichō-gakke", "sanchō-gakke", "yonchō-gakke", and "gochō-gakke": most won't realize that most of the names are based on numbers
@Curly Turkey: Would something like namitsuke (1), nichō-gakke (2)... be an improvement? I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would, though it would be ideal to explicate that the names themselves include the numbers (I suppose "nami" implies "one", but only in the context of the others being explicitly numbered). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okedō are played using the same or similar bachi: bachi have not yet been introduced, so this will set heads a-scratch
Done. Eep, thanks. I've changed it to "sticks." I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:14, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Or you could just introduce "bachi" (say, the drumsticks, called "bachi", or somesuch). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
  • They are placed on a tall pedestal: one tall pedastal, or on a tall pedastal each?
Uh, I'm not sure I understand the question here? A single tsuri-daiko is placed on a single pedestal. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've tweaked this. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is typically played for bugaku performances.: a brief explanation of bugaku would be helpful
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The tsuri-daiko (釣太鼓) is a smaller drum: no translation of "tusri-daiko"? (perhaps "suspended drum"?) I assume it's called that because of the way it's hung in a frame, but the text says "when the drum is suspended on a stand", which seems to suggest it sometimes isn't suspended---is that the case?
Done. This was a misread of the source text on my part when I wrote this some time ago; the instrument is always suspended, and the player is sitting down while it is being played. The source text from Miki reads that In gagaku, the performer sits to play the tsuri-daiko which I thought meant the instrument was played flat to the ground. After checking out some images of the instrument being played, like this one, it's clear the player is still sitting while performing. I've rephrased this accordingly. I also learned that 釣 can apparently refer to trolling? I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not hip to Japanese Internet lingo, but it sounds plausible: "釣" also means fishing, so I suppose it means something like "angling for a reaction"? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are other taiko used in gagaku such as the san-no-tsuzumi (三の鼓): no description?
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 23:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like this has been removed. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to take a break here (gotta see the doctor about a pain in my chest). Ping me if I forget to return within a few days (something I'm prone to). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:17, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I hope you feel better. Chest pains are no good. :( I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's lasted more than a month and hasn't gotten in the least better, but the doctor thinks it's just a pinched nerve or something and not to worry about. I've been reviewing the pancreatic cancer FAC, so guess what was going through my head? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Body (cont'd)
[edit]
  • something needs to be done about italicization—many unassimilated foreign terms are unitalicized, and some terms ("kumi-daiko") are sometimes italicized and sometimes not
Done. I've standardized italics throughout the article for Japanese terms lacking an article. I've avoided italicizing proper nouns, like the names of people and companies. I, JethroBT drop me a line 10:31, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd like to see more examples of, for example, the differences in rhythm alluded to
Checking... I, JethroBT drop me a line 05:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's a nice addition, but it doesn't illustrate any "differences", does it? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Taiko construction has several components: are these "components" a sequence? Would it be better described as "stages"?
Done. Agreed, this is a better description. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • to precisely tension the skin to the drumhead: this sounds strange to me, but I'm not sure how best to reword it
How about to precisely apply tension across the drumhead ? I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's better. I've made the change. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Fixed to "has been making" as they are still around and continue to produce high-quality taiko. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It bears similarity to the same term in martial arts: well, no, it is the same term, applied in a different context
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've tweaked the wording, but I still feel like it could be better. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • which is often accomplished by keeping a wide, low stance with the legs: how often? Is it usual?
Checking... I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. The source refers to one group, San Jose Taiko, so I'll simply say here that stabilization can be accomplished through this low stance rather than refer to how often it is used. I've also added the Varian (2013) source that suggests this stance, but does not indicate how frequently it is used. IMO, it is a pretty common stance in my experience performing and watching other groups, but I can't find a source specifying how common it is. I, JethroBT drop me a line 04:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so you perform? I guess the wording's acceptable, but something more specific would be ideal. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I've added a few more points on form with regard to the shoulders and hips of the player. And yes, I've been performing for about 4 years; we have a ragtag group here in Chicago called Kaiju Daiko （怪獣太鼓） that's somewhere between amateur and semi-professional. Japanese folks are a bit taken aback by the name, but they get it once we start playing— we try to play big. We've played at some decent venues in the city, but we're nowhere near as disciplined or skilled as many groups. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • which refers to very specific kinds of movement while performing: "iki" itself "refers to very specific kinds of movement while performing"? I know how difficult it is to sum up terms from Japanese aesthetics, but a bit more elaboration would be helpful
Checking... I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 03:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm ... this description doesn't jive well with the one at Iki (aesthetics) ... Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Curly Turkey: It may not, but that's because the article needs work. See [4], [5], [6] "Japanese at that time valued iki (urbanity), which was characterized by...a vivacious lifestyle.". I don't think Bender is off in his interpretation of the term. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll buy that (I've tightened the wording). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • such as the shime grip: which is? Also, I wonder if a pronunciation guide would be helpful—even I read this as /ʃaɪm/ before I realized it was a Japanese word (thus the importance of italicizing unfamiliar foreign words). Rather than cluttering up the body, perhaps a table of pronunciations could be thrown in?
Checking... Perhaps the pronunciation table could be integrated into the glossary you mentioned below? I actually don't really know IPA that well, so I may need some help with this one. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you go with that, I could provide the pronunciations (we could go with both IPA and whatever-they-call-non-IPA-pronunciation-guides). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The way the bachi are held is also significant in the context of Buddhism. For some groups, bachi represent a spiritual link between the body and the sky.: can this be elaborated?
Done. Not this point specifically, but the more general point can be made that physical objects like the taiko body, skin, and byo all are symbolically significant in Buddhism. There's a bit more about taiko and Buddhism in another source that I've added as well. I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • called kakegoe or kiai: this could be interpreted as "kakegoe" and "kiai" being synonyms
Done. I've changed this to kakegoe and kiai. I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • there has been literature published on taiko performance based on Japanese standards: based on Japanese standards of performance, standards of criticism, standards of...?
Done. Yeah, this could use a rephrase. I've changed this to, ...Japanese publications have emerged in an attempt to standardize taiko performance. I, JethroBT drop me a line 19:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The subsections of the "Hachijō-daiko" section are brief enough that I don't they they warrant being subsections
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • typically improvised musical composition: are "improvised" and "composition" not contradictory?
Done. Changed from "musical composition" to "rhythms."
  • Are there really only two regionally styles worth mentioning?
Checking... Kumi-daiko dominates the literature because of its popularity; there was precious little I've found on regional varieties. These are folk traditions, and as such, do not get much in the way of coverage. I'll give another look around to see what I can dig up, though. I, JethroBT drop me a line 05:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if there's a paucity of literature, perhaps the "Regional styles" section could begin with a brief section giving an overview of what little you can find as examples, and then introduce the subsections. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Taking another break to respond to your responses above. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:04, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've removed the "lit." and "trans." from the translations---"literally" almost never means quite what people think it does, and "trans." is just redundant. Another issue with it I've just found is 三の鼓 trans. "hourglass drum"---it may be called an "hourglass drum" in English, but that sure ain't a translation of "三".
"Third hand drum" is probably best here, if the goal is literal translations from the kanji. I don't always think literal translations are the best though-- "third hand drum" seems disorienting to me as a reader, and leaves me asking, "what about the other two?" The problem is that there are other drums, but precious little is written about them (in part because they have long been abandoned) and are pretty much out of scope for this article. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not pushing for a literal translation, just a "good enough" gloss. Where does the "hand" come from, by the way? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:57, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that translation was taken from Jim Breen's WWWJDIC. My Casio XD ST4500 has this entry for 鼓: a kind of small shoulder drum which they tap with the finger tips. It seems like this is generally the case, with the exception of the 三の鼓. I'm thinking it might be better just to use a different example here, probably the 小鼓　since we have an image of it now. I, JethroBT drop me a line 05:09, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see---the problem with that gloss is that it reads as "three hand drum" rather than three "hand drum". Maybe it is best to drop it---it doesn't seem too important to the article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:24, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the content on the san-no-tsuzumi and added in a new section on Noh instruments as I neglected to mention them at all in prose (yet it's on the table). I think this fits pretty well. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:34, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Tangue Setsuko Taiko Dojo is the official name. We could change this to Tangue Setsuko founded an eponymous taiko dojo. Just trying to avoid the whole Tangue Setsuko founded the Tangue Setsuko Taiko Doko redundancy because it doesn't read well. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Certain peoples have used taiko as a means: while there's nothing incorrect with the wording, keeping in mind that Wikipedia serves a general, international audience, I might choose a clearer term than "peoples" here
I remember mulling over this; the groups in the article are a gender, a social class in Japan, and an immigrant racial group in North America. I considered "societies," but that sounded too organized to me. These are such broad groups, "peoples" seemed apt in the sense that these are broad groups of people. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • of the social movement by third-generation: which social movement? I know it's explained, but the sentence seems unfinished somehow
To be more specific, I've rephrased this to "cultural development" rather than having to summarize the entire social movement. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • social scientist Hideyo Konogaya remarks: just double-checking: this is "Hideyo" and not "Hideo"? And it's "Konogaya" and not "Konagaya"?
Done. Confound it all, I've messed up both the first and last name of this author while working on this. The actual name is Hideyo Konagaya ([7], [8]). Fixed up the refs and name in prose. Sheesh. I, JethroBT drop me a line 00:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • while in the United States it was meant to be an explicit representation of masculinity and power in Japanese-Americans: despite the fact of high female participation?
Checking... I'll have to reread the Bronner source, but he focuses a bit more on the male experience of being Japanese in the U.S., particularly how they responded to perceptions that Japanese-American men were physically weak and soft-spoken (i.e. stereotypically feminine), and that taiko was a vehicle by which to combat those perceptions. I'll have to see if he discusses female particiption. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Related terms: I'm not sure about this section---it's very short, when it's obvious there are many more terms in the taiko vocabulary. Here's an idea: include all the pertinent terms throughout the article in a "Taiko glossary" section---even better, move all the kanji to this section, which'll free up the flow of the straight prose.
  • Taiko no Tatsujin: an entire section on this? That seems a bit WP:UNDUE and over-detailed---yes, I'm aware of what a phenomenon the game is. Perhaps a "Cultural legacy" section? I'm sure taiko has shown up elsewere---is there taiko manga, for instance, or movies, TV shows, TV themes, do groups release CDs?
Checking... It's not in the GA nomination, but I seem to recall ChrisGualtieri asking to add this section during the GA process (but I could be mistaken). I'll look into other cultural phenomena involving taiko, but this will take some time. I, JethroBT drop me a line 07:28, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Taiko no Tatsujin is much more of a hit in Japan than in North America with more than 30 different games and some tie in manga, and little anime shorts. Taiko do show up in other cultural works, just not as the focus. It is a good argument you make, unless something comes to balance the whole in sufficient detail - it is probably best to do an "in culture" section. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's a phenomenon and should be mentioned of course, but the level of detail is inappropriate for the taiko article (what consoles it was released on, etc). It really needs no more detail than a brief description of the gameplay and the fact that it's popular and has had numerous sequels.
I've hunted around and I'm surprised how little other media I could find. I've found the odd thing like this, but not in third-party sources. I assumed I'd find a film in the vein of Sumo Do, Sumo Don't, but I've found zip. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I, JethroBT drop me a line 06:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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