Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tahmasp I/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 22 August 2022 [1].

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Tahmasp I

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 08:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is about... Tahmasp I, the second (and my favourite) Safavid Shah of Iran. The article has been under copy edit, and I had put it under a peer review (unfortunately, nothing came out of it) but I'm confidant that this article (unlike my other two unsuccessful nominees) is ready to promote as a Featured article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 08:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

image review

• File:Tahmasp_I.png: why is this believed to be CC?

It seems the person who cropped it from the original (which itself was a cropped version from this one), wanted to emphasis that they grant full permission for usage of the image, should I change it?

Yes - a simple crop is unlikely to meet the threshold of originality. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Done

• File:Khalili_Collection_Islamic_Art_TLS-2714-back.jpg needs a tag for the original work. Ditto File:Iran,_Qazvin,_Safavid_period_-_Shah_Tahmasp_I_(1514-1576)_Seated_in_a_Landscape_-_1917.1078_-_Cleveland_Museum_of_Art.tif, File:Flag_of_Shah_Tahmasp_I.svg, File:Qazvin_-_Chehel_Sotun.jpg, File:Khalili_Collection_Islamic_Art_qur_0729_fol_1b-2a.jpg, File:Coin_of_Tahmasp_I,_minted_in_Shiraz.jpg

Um, I don't really know what the tag for the original work is, can you please give me a link for an image that has one?

Here are a couple of examples from current FACs: File:Sculpture_"Asia"_at_main_entrance_to_Alexander_Hamilton_U.S._Custom_House,_New_York,_New_York_LCCN2010720093.tif and File:Queen_Victoria_proof_double_sovereign_MET_DP100383_(cropped).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Done, though you might want to take a look to check of I've done anything wrong. Amir Ghandi (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

• File:Shah_Tahmasp_holding_court,_attributable_to_Mu'in_Musavvir,_Safavid_Isfahan,_circa_1670_A.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Sueleymanname_nahcevan.jpg, File:Elkas_Mirza.jpg, File:Tahmasp,_Humayun_Meeting.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

First look by Johnbod

• The article is perhaps rather short for an FA on a 50 year reign.

All major events of his reign are addressed, what remains is some minor events that happened during those major ones. I expended the Georgian campaigns section. But really there's nothing left unsaid about his reign.

• The English needs touching up.

I enlisted it for a Copy Edit.

• Lower down, there are overlong paras that need splitting.

Done.

• My interest and knowledge of T is as a patron of the Persian miniature - until he wasn't. The article doesn't seem to use any refs by art historians except Soudavar (and Canby, not used to ref material on art). "Tahmasp has been called the greatest Safavid patron" is true, but not best referenced to a general historian. Little about major commissions, or the artists he employed.

Expended the section with references to Canby and Marianna Shreve Simpson. Despite searching, I still can't find a source by an art historian that summarises Tahmasp reign. Most of them analyse the works created during this era, which I believe would be too long and somewhat irrelevant for this article.

• Doesn't seem much on Persia's place in the developing Eurasian strategic balance over this long period.

It seems Tahmap's lasting legacy was more internal than his father before him and his grandson Abbas the Great. Especially regarding the religion and how he changed the Safavid ideology towards one of zealousness.

Johnbod (talk) 16:21, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @Johnbod:. Just a question, should I wait for more of your comments or should I address these ones? Thanks. Amir Ghandi (talk) 03:20, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Address these, please. Johnbod (talk) 23:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Johnbod:, hi, I addressed all of them. Any thoughts? Amir Ghandi (talk) 21:38, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Johnbod: ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Not very impressed so far. The arts section starts: "Tahmasp has been called the greatest Safavid patron. He was the namesake of one of the most celebrated illustrated manuscripts of the Shahnameh, which was commissioned by his father around 1522 and completed during the mid-1530s. In his youth, Tahmasp was inclined towards calligraphy and art and patronised masters in both. Tahmasp's most celebrated contribution to the Safavid arts was his patronage of delux illustrated manuscripts that took place during the first half of his reign." with obvious English problems, a concealed link to the Shahnameh of Shah Tahmasp, and no link (anywhere I can see) to Persian miniature, the main type of art patronised. Johnbod (talk) 00:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

    Hello, @Johnbod:, sorry that I did not respond to you earlier. Firstly, thank you for your edit in the article. I truly don't know what I can do to reach what you expect. I linked Persian miniature in the article. But I simply don't know what else I could add. Amir Ghandi (talk) 03:46, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

    • Well, i'm working through on the English, & should have some points too. The copy-editing may exclude me from doing a review that counts, but it needs doing. Johnbod (talk) 03:54, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• You should explain what the territory of Iran was then. It was obviously much larger than the modern Iran

Done

• "painters, calligraphers and poets and painting himself". This is unclear. Do you mean that he was himself a painter or that he painted a self-portrait?

The former; I rephrased it. Amir Ghandi (talk) 04:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Tahmasp is known for his religious inclination, allowing the clergy to participate in legal and administrative matters." This is vague. You mean that he was a hardline Shi'ite?

Yes, rephrased the line. Amir Ghandi (talk) 04:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Although contemporary Western accounts were critical, modern historians describe him as a courageous and able commander who maintained and expanded his father's empire.[1]" This is referenced and I do not see it in the main text. The standard Wikipedia method is to have referenced statements in the main text and an unreferenced summary in the lead.

The first part is sourced later on the article; but I'll remove the source just in case.

• "ending the Qizilbash worshiping his father as the of Messiah". This is ungrammatical and confused. Qizilbash should be explained and linked.

Done.

• "Tahmasp's father, Ismail I, became shah of Iran in 1502". This needs expansion. You need to spell out that he created Iran and who ruled the area before.

Done.

• "Unlike his ancestors, Ismail believed in Twelver Shia Islam and made it the official religion of the realm." Presumably you mean that his ancestors were Sunnis, but you should say so specifically.

Actually what I meant was Sufism. Done anyways.

• " The Uzbek victory, during which Najm was executed". He was executed during the battle or afterwards? Executed by the shah or the Uzbeks?

Captured during the battle and then executed. Amend it.

• "The following year, Ismail appointed the Diyarbakr governor Amir Soltan Mawsillu as Tahmasp's lala (tutor) and governor of Balkh.[16] This was done to replace the Shamlu and Mawsillu governors of Khorasan, who did not join his army during the Battle of Chaldiran in fear of famine.[17] Placing Tahmasp in Herat was an attempt to reduce the growing influence of the Shamlu tribe," This is unclear. Why should an appointment to Balkh replace one to Khorasan and what is the connection with Herat?

Both Balkh and Herat are located in Khorasan.

• You should explain this. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:19, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• "Ismail appointed Div Sultan Rumlu as Tahmasp's lala, and the governorship was given to his younger son Sam Mirza Safavi." How could Sam Mirza be governor when he was only four years old? Presumably the appointment was nominal but then why mention it?

Its important to mention that Sam Mirza was nominally the governor of Khorasan because later on the Regency section of the article, its mentioned that Herat was conquered by Uzbeks but they allowed Sam Mirza safe return to Tabriz.

• More to follow, but in general the main problem I find with this article is that it assumes too much knowledge of the history of the period to be easily understood by a non-expert. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• "During the civil war, the Uzbek raiders temporarily seized Tus and Astarabad". Your treatment of the Uzbeks is unclear. You refer here to "the Uzbeks" as if they were a specific faction, but above to a raid by Uzbeks, implying that they were a tribe some of whom launched raids. You do not link Uzbeks at their first mention in the lead. You need to link and explain them there. Presumably they were a tribe living outside Iran, unlike the other factions which were internal to the country?

Every time the Uzbeks are mentioned its regarding the tribes who dwelt in Central Asia and raided Iran. Also, I have linked Uzbeks in the lead in the sentence "Tahmasp also had conflicts with the Uzbeks over Khorasan".

• "Every time the Uzbeks are mentioned its regarding the tribes who dwelt in Central Asia and raided Iran." This should be stated in the article." Dudley Miles (talk) 06:48, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Done; added a whole paragraph in the Background section dedicated to the Safavid and Uzbek conflict. Amir Ghandi (talk) 09:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Mawsillu is not linked at first mention.

Done.

• "Hossein Khan raided the camp, killed Chuha and replaced him". What camp? You have not previously refer to one.

Further explained it.

• "In 1528, Ubayd reconquered Astarabad and Tus". You have not said that they lost it.

The source doesn't say when they lost it, but it said that they temporary seized it. So I guess they either abandoned their seizures and were drove out.

• "fighting the Habsburgs and the siege of Vienna". As there were several sieges of Vienna and this was not the most famous one, maybe [[Siege of Vienna (1529)|attempting to conquer Vienna]].

Rephrased it to "unsuccessfully attempted to Seize Vienna"

• "Suleiman sent Olama Beg Takkalu with 50,000 troops under Fil Pasha". Sent him where?

The source says "Olāma Beg Takkalu returned to Persia in 1532 with an Ottoman patron, Fil Pasha, and 50,000 troops." Amended it.

• "tried to obtain support from Gilan". It would be clearer if you spelled it out as Gilan province.

Done

• "Suleiman tried to lead another campaign against him. Tahmasp primarily attacked his rearguard" "Suleiman led another campaign against him. Tahmasp attacked his rearguard" woudl be simpler.

Done

• "These terms, in circumstances favourable to the Safavids, were evidence of a decisive victory by Tahmasp." It is not clear why they were favourable to Tahmasp as, apart from access for pilgrims, you list concessions by him.

Added "Moreover, this treaty enabled Iran to consolidate its forces and resources, while its western provinces were able to recover from war" per this source.

• "He also had the governor of Tbilisi, Golbad, converted to Islam." This is an odd wording. No one can order conversion if the proposed convert refuses.

Forced conversion exits though.

• Ditto with "and had Levan of Kakheti swear fealty to him".

Reworded it.

• More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

• "the 1535 appointment of Qazi Jahan Qazvini, who brought diplomacy beyond Iran by establishing contact with the Portuguese". "extended" would be a better word than "brought".

Done

• "the Shiite dynasties of the Deccan" "the Shiite Deccan sultanates" might be clearer.

Done

• "With new foreign relations, the first extant Safavid letters to a European power were sent in 1540 to Doge of Venice Pietro Lando with the Venetian ambassador Michel Membré". I would leave out "With new foreign relations" as it says the same as the next phrase. Also, do you mean that there was already a Venetian ambassador at the Safavid court? If so, you should spell this out.

"If so, you should spell this out" Done, explained it further.

• "since the extent to which his beliefs influenced Safavid religious policy is rooted in Persian Shia Islam." This is ungrammatical and unclear.

Amended it.

• "and was enough self-aware to not face the Ottomans directly in the battlefield" This is ungrammatical and unclear.

AMended it.

• " however, his personality would appear in a more favourable light when, in spite of his piety, he would forgo of taxes of about 30,000 tomans as a violation of religious law". This is unclear. Why in spite of his piety? Are you saying that religious law required him to collect the taxes? It is also a personal view, not impartial.

Amended it.

• The coinage section should be further up, not at the end.

Done

• "As Hans Roemer (1986, p. 249) observed,". The source should be in a citation, not the text, and there is no source Roemer 1986. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  Roemer 2008 is the same as Roemer 1986; I used the 2008 edition. Moreover, that note is a copied text from the Iranica article Tahmasp I written by Collin Mitchell not something I wrote. Amir Ghandi (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• THen you should quote and cite Roemer 2008, not at second hand in another writer. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  Why? I'm not trying to quote Roemer on that note, its just happens to be within the text copied from the article. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• I misread it. You seemed to be quoting Roemer, but I see now that you are quoting Mitchell. Quotes should always be attributed inline to a named author e.g. start the note The historian Colin Mitchell writes: "A more appealing explanation... Also, when you have quotes within quotes they should be distinguished by using single quotes " for the whole quote and ' for internal quotes. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:49, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  Done Amir Ghandi (talk) 15:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support. OK now. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator note

This has been open for four weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it makes considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next two or three days I am afraid that it will have to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• I am afraid that this has timed out.
• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.