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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 04:32, 7 December 2007.

Tōru Takemitsu

[edit]

I'm nominating this article for featured article because after much work and effort I think it's ready, and meets the criteria. Takemitsu was one of the great composers of the second half of the 20th century, and promoting this article to featured content should, I hope, draw some attention to him and his contribution to modern music. Matt.kaner 13:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Self-nomination Matt.kaner 18:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Support. I objected only on the grounds that the "fair-use" image is very clearly labelled "Commercial use strictly prohibited", which rules its use out on Wikipedia, I'm afraid, as Wikipedia chooses to impose no such restriction. The image must be removed, I think, (or at least uploaded at a much reduced resolution) and I would then support. I am in favour of there being more featured articles about composers, and I think this interesting, well-structured article otherwise fits the bill. It seems pretty comprehensive and reasonable, and to be at about the right level for Wikipedia. Caveat: I am not a Takemitsu expert! --RobertG ♬ talk 11:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Update: I've placed a {{nld}} tag on the image: I feel the copyright-holder's clear restriction must make it unavailable for use on Wikipedia. As always, I may be wrong of course! Feel free to disagree if you know more about it… --RobertG ♬ talk 10:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    On what basis? As far as i can tell the image qualifies for fair use. The copywrite holder has restricted commercial reuse, but not use for promotional purposes, which would allow it to be added to wikipedia with an appropriate tag (in this case, "Non-free_promotional|rational=yes|living=no"). Unless there is a free alternative available (jamesarts doesn't state a license, so it may be worth contacting them). CaNNoNFoDDaTalk 22:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I am persuaded that I know nothing about it, and therefore withdraw my objection. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I have carried out a bit of a copyedit, which I hope will meet with your approval. The following comments can be easily addressed, and I do not regard them as objections:
    The quotation from Ozawa in the lead is ungrammatical - can you check that it is quoted exactly? I am very proud of my friend of Takemitsu [should that be "proud of my friendship with…" or "proud of my friend…"]. If it is quoted exactly, we need a sic somewhere.
Good point, the second of is a mistake! Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was his family life like: there is no mention of his mother? Did he move to Manchuria with his family, or just with his father? It wasn't quite clear (and it said "he was moved" until I edited it).
    To deduce that Stravinsky "probably" spoke to Copland about Takemitsu from Stravinsky's admiration and Copland's subsequent conducting of the première of the Koussevitsky commission seems quite a stretch: is this documented?
Yes, I think Takemitsu himself made that connection, although he could not really be certain. Perhaps it would work better as a quotation, I'll dig out the original paper and sort it out later today! Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Takemitsu's "renewed interest in the music of Webern" is presented in the biography section before there is any mention of his initial interest (it is discussed in the "music" section though: it just gives the reader a bit of a jolt as it stands).
Good point. Will amend. Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • …paying special attention to the differences between the two very different musical traditions - do you mean the difference between western and Japanese, or between two different Japanese traditions?
The former. Will clarify in the article
  • The success of a work isn't "guaranteed" just because it is released as an LP! - I removed that bit.
    I can't tell whether you choose American or Commonwealth English? I think you mean Commonwealth ("characterise") but I also see "theater".
I'm British, and use Brit. English. However, a lot of the translations from Japanese are made into American English, which makes it difficult to maintain a consistency, particularly with the quotes. Part of me thinks I should move the whole thing over to American. What do you think? Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If the quotations are translations of the Japanese, I don't think you are bound to copy the references' spellings. However, if most of the quotations were originally published in en-us, then I agree that any resulting apparent inconsistency if you choose en-gb may be a Bad Thing™. As the article's main contributor, I think you get to choose! --RobertG ♬ talk 13:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I took it that the ellipses in quotations were "editorial […]", and "…not quoted".
Correct. Do you think I should make that clear somewhere? Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think it is now clear. I was just checking I'd done the right thing! --RobertG ♬ talk 13:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I prefer "motif" to "motive" (perhaps I've read too many murder mysteries?) but I know personal preferences aren't actionable!
As a young music analyst I find that motive is preferable, simply because there are no such words as 'motific', 'motifically', and things can start to get confusing. It does sound ugly though... Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not entirely convinced of the similarity noted between the Messiaen and Takemitsu figures in Example 4 (or at least that this is the best example), but if it's referenced to Burt then please let it stand. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Burt reference. I agree with you nevertheless. Sadly it's the only text, and there is a connection between the two in many other places, but I can't use original research material. Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment. I'm not sure the detective novel, the recipe book and the appearance as a celebrity chef belong in the lead. I don't know how to move them into the article body because there is no indication of when they occurred, nor do I have any feeling for whether they are notable: their appearance in the first second sentence almost certainly gives them too much prominence per WP:LEAD. --RobertG ♬ talk 15:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
-- I think you're right there. I know that being a chef was quite a major part of his life, but it's not well documented in English. I will try and fit them into the lead asap, when I find suitable references of when they occurred. Matt.kaner 12:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Remark changed to Pass & support

  • "He also wrote a detective novel, recipe books and appeared on Japanese television as celebrity chef." If he is mainly known as a Japanese composer, then this sentence should be at near the end of the lead.
  • I think the article needs more internal links.
Links to what? Please be specific!Matt.kaner 14:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're the expert editor on the topic. I'm sure you'll make better decisions, hopefully. I still feel it could use more internal links to relevant articles. Learnedo 08:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add more images if possible.
Images of what? Photos? I don't think there's any cause to include any more music quotes, there's nothing that needs further illustration.Matt.kaner 14:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like images. They help. Learnedo 08:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you cannot "justify the use of any more without infringeing fair use rules" given that "all Takemitsu's works are still in copyright," then don't. With respect to images besides music examples, images of the person's youth or an image in the Awards section are only a few ideas. To me, any images, if possible, will help. Learnedo 20:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that would be particularly useful, and there's no sources that detail the effects of his legacy in particular, other than that he made a massive change to Japanese classical music in general. He didn't take on any serious pupils, or start any particular school/trend.Matt.kaner 14:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If he 'made a massive change to Japanese classical music,' then that should definitely be in his legacy but if there isn't any sources, then it may be that he did not make a 'massive change to Japanese classical music.' ?? I'll be happy to support whenever these few things are cleared up.
I do not believe the Legacy section you created is considered original research and in fact add to the overall article. Learnedo 20:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Learnedo 08:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I agree, although that little bit was taken out of the lead. I've just got another book on him from the library that actually seems quite useful, so I'll see if I can find anything else to add to it. As it is it's a bit short! Matt.kaner 12:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "an increased use of diatonic material [… with] references to tertian harmony and jazz voicing",—Someone tell me: are the ellipsis dots necessary here? I think not, but I may be wrong. Tony (talk) 14:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The state of play with ellipses at WP:MOS is unsettled. According to respected style guides, if there is a clarifying interpolation in square brackets you don't normally put an ellipsis also; but in this case I would put one if the with by itself would be misleading. It may well be, since the quoted text may not mean diatonic material with references to..., or even use of diatonic material with references to... It may be that the references in questions are counted as a separate feature, despite the fact that they are indeed usually associated with "diatonic" practice.
By current WP:MOS the ellipsis should be three dots [...], not preformed […].
I was asked to help with copyediting this article some months ago. I went through a large portion of it, but then took a long break. I can go through it again now, for the odd detail. Would that be acceptable, while it is under examination here? [Done now, anyway. Reflecting recent changes at WP:MOS, etc.– Noetica♬♩ Talk 01:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)][reply]
– Noetica♬♩ Talk 23:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that all the above queries and comments have been addressed as far as possible, thanks for taking the time everyone. I am continuing to add the article as an ongoing process, as time permits. Matt.kaner (talk) 16:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No: there have been long discussions, and I believe there is a consensus not to do that for composers - it's too problematic. --RobertG ♬ talk 07:28, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, once the formatting is fixed. For example, you make the readers work too hard to see what "Burt" refers to in the reference list. It's a lot of extra print, but I think the details should appear each time unless they immediately follow a full version. My mistake. Tony (talk) 04:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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