Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Spokane, Washington/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:41, 27 January 2009 [1].

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Spokane, Washington

Nominator(s): Anon134 (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe it satisfies the FA criteria. Anon134 (talk) 06:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments -

• Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original.
• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • http://www.u-s-history.com/
  • http://www.city-data.com/
  • http://www.weatherbase.com/
• Journal titles/magazine titles/newspaper titles need to be in italics in the references.
• Double check all your links to make sure they have access dates.
• Current ref 43 (Tour Director...) needs a publisher

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

1. The citations in all-caps are gone...what an eye sore.

2a. I see what your saying about U-S-History.com, ill replace the references with other sources –I wouldn’t put much stock in it either now that I see the advertisements on the page. That probably isnt the best source. I got rid of the one referencing the Oregon Treaty, replacing it with an Encarta reference.

I am currently trying to find reliable sources to replace the Spokane tribe references, this ones a toughie. Ill update you when Im done with that...

Update: All U-S-History references have been replaced.

2b & c. In regard to city-data and Weatherbase, these sources may not be the sources that most people prefer (government, non-profit organizations, etc), but they aren't like citing Geocities or a blog. I have no reason to believe that these companies aren't competent at what they do. Unless I find reasons to the contrary, these sources seem as reliable of a source as Weather.com, Arbitron Inc., or Nielsen Media Research, Inc. These citations are being cited for facts that are within the sources' expertise (Weatherbase is being used as a reference for climate info, not history info, etc). I would have to ask, is there a reason why you believe they arent reliable?

It should also be noted, that both Weatherbase and city-data are currently being referenced in the San Francisco, California featured article.

3. I hope to be done italicizing them later today. Ill get back to you on that when Im finished...

Update: I think ive italicized all of them.

4. I skimmed the references section. Found one instance where there was no access date; I put one on.

5. I put the publisher in there.

Anon134 (talk) 21:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on criterion 3

• File:SpokaneFromPalisades 20070614.jpg - We need to establish that Mark Wagner and User:Carnildo are the same person, since the uploader has released the license and claimed the photo as his "own work".

• File:SpokaneCitySeal.png - "The image is to be used to visually represent the city in articles directly related to the team." - This fair use rationale doesn't make any sense. We also need to add the name of the copyright holder.

• File:Spokane County Washington Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Spokane Highlighted.svg - Is it possible to link to the US Census Bureau data?

• File:Spokane Falls 1888.jpg - According to WP:IUP, "A good source for an image from a book is to provide all information about the book (Author, Title, ISBN number, page number(s), date of copyright, publisher information)". Please also add the artist's name to the "author" field.

• File:Spokane Riverfront Park 20061014.jpg - We need to establish that Mark Wagner and User:Carnildo are the same person, since the uploader has released the license and claimed the photo as his "own work".

• File:Spokanefallsm05.jpg - We need a description, a source, and an author for this image.

• File:Spokane at night 20071003.jpg - We need to establish that Mark Wagner and User:Carnildo are the same person, since the uploader has released the license and claimed the photo as his "own work".

• File:St. Al's from JFM.JPG - We need an author, a date, and a source for this image.

These issues should be relatively easy to resolve. Awadewit (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I have left a message on Carnildo's Talk page so he can have the opportunity to clarify some of the issues related to File:SpokaneFromPalisades 20070614.jpg and File:Spokane Riverfront Park 20061014.jpg.

Ill try to address some of the other issues later. Photos could be taken out so the article can be in full compliance with criterion 3. Anon134 (talk) 23:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm Mark Wagner and those images are mine. I've updated the author information. --Carnildo (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Regarding File:Spokane County Washington Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Spokane Highlighted.svg, I left a message on the authors talk page, so hopefully he can help if it is needed. But, I was thinking and doing a bit of looking around and noticed the Seattle article's counterpart to that image, File:King County Washington Incorporated and Unincorporated areas Seattle Highlighted.svg was also done by User:Arkyan and contains the same type of information and also has no link to the Census. So, in all fairness, I dont understand why this particular problem wasnt a problem then, but is now... Anon134 (talk) 07:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

We weren't systematically reviewing images in 2005. Standards have risen. :) Awadewit (talk) 20:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. This double standard still doesnt seem fair, but alright... If all other issues are resolved and it comes to the point where only these nagging image problems are holding the article back from reaching its full potential, then ill just delete all the problem images. They can always be put back in when they meet the Wikipedia image standards. Anon134 (talk) 00:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - Not bad, I do have qualms with it. They are:

1. Realign the image in Geography either down a paragraph or to the right. I would prefer down.
2. "According to the United States Census Bureau, the city has a total area of 58.5 square miles (152 km2), of which, 57.8 square miles (150 km2) is land and 0.8 square miles (2.1 km2) is water." - Source?
3. "Spokane is surrounded by many incorporated and unincorporated communities, which make up the suburbs of Spokane. They include Airway Heights, Cheney, Mead, Colbert, Spokane Valley, Millwood, Nine Mile Falls, Otis Orchards, and Liberty Lake. Across the border in Idaho, are Post Falls and Coeur d'Alene." - Source?
4. "Much of Spokane is reflected in its large variety of neighborhoods. Neighborhoods range from the Victorian-era style South Hill and Browne's Addition, to the Davenport Arts District of Downtown, to the more contemporary neighborhoods of North Spokane. Some of the neighborhoods are officially recognized by the city, while others are not, but are commonly thought of as distinct neighborhoods by residents. The districts include: Browne's Addition, Corbin Park, East Downtown Historic District, Fort George Wright, Four Corners, Hillyard Historic District, Marycliff-Cliff Park, Mission Avenue, Nettleton's Addition, Ninth Avenue, South Perry, Peaceful Valley, Riverside Avenue, Rockwood, Desmet Avenue Warehouse, and the West Downtown Historic Transportation Corridor." <--Source?
5. "In all, over 500 projects worth over $2 billion are taking place in downtown Spokane." <--Source?
6. The first four paragraphs of Demographics are unsourced.
7. I would suggest a source for the chart next to it. (Optional)
8. "...the denominational groups of the Spokane MSA are 43,397 Evangelical Protestant, 32,207 Mainline Protestant, 776 Orthodox, 57,187 Catholic, 17,351 Other, and 267,021 Unclaimed." - Source?
9. "The Strong Mayor initiative created distinct legislative and executive branches within the city government. Under the Strong Mayor form of government, there are two distinct branches of government: the Executive (Mayor) and the Legislative (City Council). The Mayor, as the Chief Executive Officer for the City of Spokane, is in charge of operating city government and implementing the policies developed by the City Council. The City Council sets the policy direction for the city." <--Source?
10. "Hession became mayor on December 16, 2005 after the recall of the Jim West." --Source?
11. Education needs major source fixes.
12. "Natural resources have traditionally provided much of the economic activity for the Spokane area, a major center for the timber, agriculture, and mining industries in the region"<--Source?
13. "The region's healthcare needs are served primarily by Seattle-based Providence Health & Services and Spokane-based Empire Health Services, two non-profit organizations who run the two biggest hospitals in Spokane, Sacred Heart Medical Center (Spokane), and Deaconess Medical Center, respectively. Both hospitals are Level II trauma centers and work together by alternating weeks of being the designated trauma center in the area. The two hospitals, along with a majority of Spokane's major health care facilities are located on Spokane's Lower-South Hill, just south of Downtown. The close proximity of the hospitals, doctors' offices, and specialized clinics scattered around this area, form what is known as the "Medical District" of Spokane." <-- Again, Source?
14. "The first segment of the freeway is scheduled to be open in 2009. The rest of the freeway will be built as funding is made available. With full funding, the roadway would have taken 10 years to complete." <--Source?
15. "Before the influx of automobiles, people got around by using Spokane's streetcar system. Many of the older side streets in Spokane still have visible streetcar rails embedded in them to this day, as they were never removed." <--- Source? from a different angle.
16. "Spokane has rail and bus service provided by Amtrak and Greyhound via the Spokane Intermodal Center. The city is a stop for Amtrak's Empire Builder on its way from Chicago. Through service continues once a night to both Seattle and Portland, a reflection of the old Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway."<--- Source?
17. "The international airport three letter designation is "GEG", a result and legacy of the Geiger Field days prior to 1960, when the airport was was named after Army aviator Major Harold Geiger in 1941." <--Source again.
18. "The Northwest Museum of Arts and Culture houses a large collection of Native American artifacts as well as regional and national traveling art exhibits. Located in Browne's Addition amid the mansions of Spokane's late 19th-century golden age, the Museum is in a secluded setting a few blocks from the center of downtown." <--Source
19. "The First Friday Artwalk, which occurs the first Friday of every month, and is dedicated to local vendors and performers displaying art around Downtown. Spokane's two main Artwalk dates (the first Friday of February and October) attract large crowds to the art district. Spokane's main art districts are located in the Davenport District, the Garland Village, and an art district in 1800 E. Sprague area. In addition, Spokane is home to a number of art galleries, many of which are in the Davenport District. The Davenport District is also home to many of the Spokane's main performing arts venues, such as Goodworks Co-op, beneath Ella's Supper Club, which projects silent black and white movies on the back of the Fox Theater each night." - Source.
20. "Other musical performances are performed by Allegro-Baroque and Beyond, Connoisseur Concerts, the Spokane Chamber Music Association, and Uptown Opera. Theater is represented by the region's only resident professional company, Interplayer's Ensemble, whose seven-play season runs from September to June. Theater is also provided by Spokane Civic Theatre and several amateur community theaters and smaller groups." <--- Sources for both?
21. " Four years later in 2002, Spokane hosted the 2002 Skate America figure skating competition as well as the first two rounds of NCAA Division I Women's Basketball Tournament. In 2003 and 2007 the NCAA returned to Spokane with the Division I Men's Tournament, and again in 2008 with the Women's tournament." <--...Source?
22. "Spokane's professional sports teams include the Spokane Shock (af2), Spokane Indians (Northwest League), Spokane Chiefs (Western Hockey League), and the Spokane Spiders (Premier Development League)." <--Source?
23. "The Spokane Arena is the perennial host to the State 'B' Basketball Tournament, which brings athletes and fans from across Washington to Spokane. With the split of the 'B' classification in 2006, in 2007 the city began to host the State 2B (the state's second smallest class) Basketball Championships." <--Source...
24. "Spokane is associated as being home to some sports teams that have gained national recognition in the their respective arenas." <-- Source?
25. "The Spokane area offers an abundance of outdoor activities that can be enjoyed in outlying natural areas that may cater to a variety of interests, including miles of hiking trails to tread, many lakes for fishing and watersports, and numerous parks for sightseeing." <--- You know what's coming.
26. "Almost the entirety of "Parks and recreation" lacks sources.
27. Along with "Events and activities".
28. ...and media
29. "Spokane has one low power (LPFM) community radio station - KYRS-LP. KYRS serves the Spokane area with progressive perspectives, filling needs that other media do not, providing programming to diverse communities and unserved or under-served groups." <--Source?
30. 2nd paragraph and list for Television need one.

That is every dang source problem :S. Good luck fixing them.Mitch32^{(Go Syracuse)} 00:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify things, is that your criteria for meeting the verifiability principle or Wikipedia's verifiability principle?

There are many facts that should definitely be cited according to the criteria, but there are many on that list that I wasnt aware would need to be cited under Wikipedia's verifiability principle, which states, "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation.. Other

Now, it shouldnt be too hard to find sources for many of those factoids, but I wonder if it is necessary to source some of these items?

Take the following item you listed for instance:

"Spokane is surrounded by many incorporated and unincorporated communities, which make up the suburbs of Spokane. They include Airway Heights, Cheney, Mead, Colbert..." --is this likely to be challenged by most people? I dont think there is a city in America that doesnt have incorporated and un-incorporated communites. Is it the neighborhoods themselves that you are challenging? Could it be you dont think there is actually a neighborhood called "Colbert" or "Airway Heights"??

Or this...

"Before the influx of automobiles, people got around by using Spokane's streetcar system. Many of the older side streets in Spokane still have visible streetcar rails embedded in them to this day, as they were never removed." -- Does it seem unfathomable that there are visibile streetcar rails in some of the roads, especially for a place like Spokane?

It seems like the last criteria on Wikipedia's list is somewhat subjective (what is likely to be challenged might vary from person to person). Maybe you could clarify the criteria in your own words what you think Wikipedia meant by that last one there...

I think some of the items on this list are there because of Manual of Style issues, not citation issues --Ive only been on Wikipedia a bit over a month and Im not too familiar with it. Many of these factoids will simply need a re-referencing of a previously-used source (I left some unsourced in the government section because I thought it looked sort of silly citing 3 consecutive sentences with the same source), such as the AmericanFactFinder(US Census) in the 3 paragraphs after the first one in the Demographics section:

"As of the 2000 census,[<--American FactFinder/US Census Bureau is the source for the following 4 paragraphs) there were 195,629 people, 81,512 households, and 47,276 families residing in 87,941 housing units at population density of 3,387 people per square mile (1,307.7/km²). The racial makeup of the city was 89.46% White, 2.07% African American, 1.76% Native American, 2.25% Asian, 0.19% Pacific Islander, 0.88% from other races, and 3.38% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 2.99% of the population.

[2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs also are from FactFinder/Census Bureau]...

Of the 81,512 households, 29.4% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 41.3% were married couples living together, 12.4% had a female householder with no husband present, and 42.0% were non-families. 33.9% of all households were made up of individuals and 11.7% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.32 and the average family size was 2.98..."

In the demographics section you also listed the denomination statistics-which is sourced in the sentence below:

"According to the Association of Religion Data Archives' 2000 Metro Area Membership Report, the denominational groups of the Spokane MSA are 43,397 Evangelical Protestant, 32,207 Mainline Protestant, 776 Orthodox, 57,187 Catholic, 17,351 Other, and 267,021 Unclaimed."

I dont see how you missed this citation. Did you confuse it as being a citation for something else (its the only citation in the sentence). Maybe the way its cited isnt consistent with the Manual of Style and made you confused. Is that an acceptable way to cite the source according to the MoS?? I just dont know.

Anyway, thanks for your input and clarifications, reviewers. Now that I can see where the article need improvements, Ill work on them in the coming months. I know failing the FAC isnt a loss, now I know how to make this article better. I hope to fix those problems in the future in hopes it might be good enough next time its a FAC. Its going to take some time though, im the only active editor on this article right now and im pretty busy this semester, but Im going to do what I can. Thanks, Anon134 (talk) 02:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, as far as I can tell, all controversial info is sourced. Everything else doesn't necessarily need a reference. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 02:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Ive made decent headway citing notable facts, figures, and statements that might be challenged. This wont get done by the time this review or whatever is finished (unless someone else comes on out of the blue and helps..) since I will be sorta busy in the future. Also, I know this review is pretty much done and most of the reviewers are focusing on other things, but I always welcome more opinions (makes less work for the peer reviewer if anything), so let it out. Thanks again for your time. Anon134 (talk) 09:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Strong oppose by karanacs. Overall, this article is in decent shape. It is reasonably well-written (although another copyedit couldn't hurt) and appears to be laid out fairly well. However, I have serious concerns about the quality of the sourcing, and I do not believe that these can be adequately addressed in a typical FAC nomination time period. I encourage the nominator to withdraw this nomination, work on the sourcing issues, and then contact those of us who have reviewed the article for a peer review. I read about 2/3 of the article, and here are my comments on that:

• Where are the books? The history section appears to be sourced almost entirely to a self-published book (David Wynecoop), the city of Spokane (a self-published source), Encarta (a tertiary source, which we should be avoided if possible), a newspaper (which is a reliable source) and historylink, which I can't tell if it is a reliable source or not. History sections especially need to be sourced to books which give a comprehensive overview of a topic. Otherwise, the article is essentially picking and choosing from various incomplete sources. There could be giant gaps in the coverage, or it could be giving undue weight to a specific event (or events), simply because there hasn't been a good overview of the topic. Here are a few books that might be very good resources (if your library doesn't have them, they can get them via interlibrary loan)
  • Michael Schmeltzer: Spokane: The City and the People (Farcounty Press, 1988) - discusses history and the local economy
  • Robert H. Ruby, John Arthur Brown, The Spokane Indians: Children of the Sun (University of Oklahoma Press, 2006)
  • Lucile Foster Fargo, Spokane Story: A Colorful Early History of the Capital City of the Inland Empire (Northwestern Press, 1957)
  • Florence Boutwell, The Spokane Valley (Arthur H. Clark Co., 1994)
• This is not an appropriate source for history or geography facts - http://www.lib.washington.edu/Specialcoll/findaids/docs/photosgraphics/BaileyFrankPHColl276.xml
• This website http://www.mtspokane.com/mountain.php?id=70 is not an appropriate citation for geography matters, and the page does not contain the information it is supposed to be citing
• There are a large number of self-published websites that are being used to cite various things outside the history section, and a noticeable lack of newspaper/magazine articles. There are two issues with this approach:
  • This gives the appearance of original research. Encyclopedia articles are supposed to cover what independent, reliable sources think are important in the topic area. Independent, RS don't appear to have been consulted for many sections of this article - instead, it appears that someone familiar with the city simply consulted websites of organizations that the editor felt were important to the topic. I don't think that is appropriate.
  • Self-published sources cannot be used to cite some of the claims that are being made - it is blatant POV. For example, the downtown spokane society is used to cite this sentence Downtown Spokane has undergone a major rebirth in recent years . They might be a little biased. Also Healthcare in Spokane is considered excellent, and the quality of service attracts patients from beyond the region is either uncited or cited to one of the hospitals. (There are many more examples of this)
• There is some unnecessary detail. Do we really need to know who funded the project to renovate the Davenport Hotel (or that there is a safari-themed tower added on to it)?
• The article ought to have a citation for the number of students in the two school districts - those count as statistics.

Karanacs (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Im not going to withdrawal the nomination because I know it wont pass, I know this wont pass, its work in progress. Just because it wont pass is not a good enough reason for me to give up on this process. The point of this whole process is to diagnose problems so we can impove the aritcle and Wikipedia. Ive seen articles much worse than this go through the process, so please stop trying to deny the editors of this article the precious opportunity to improve it.

Now, with the issues. I dont understand why some of the issues are a problem.

The history section must have books? Is that a Wikpedia policy? If this is the case, then why is the Grand Forks article featured? I dont think it has ANY books. This seems to be another double standard.

The history section is not entirely sourced by Wynecoop. That is absolutely false and I think you know it, and everyone can see how wrong what you said is. The majority of the history section comes from HistoryLink.ORG, a Washington State history encylopedia that is a Washington non-profit, tax-exempt corporation. The Seattle FA uses HistoryLink several times. Also, I just replaced the source for the Spokane tribe, and I still want a better, more authoritative source; however, sources about the history of an Indian tribe are hard to come by, and I find no reason to believe Wynecoop is as bad of a source as you make him out to be. He is only used 3 times. Also, how do you know that the Wynecoop book is self-published?? Even if it was, is it Wikipedia policy that all book sources cant be self published?

Why cant we use the City of Spokane website for history? Do you believe that they are going to try to practice historical revisionism to show Spokane in a positive light? Is there a conflict of interest? I dont see what motivations there would be for doing such a thing. Most people regard government sources as reliable. The Grand Forks article cited their City website 7 times (for the history section).

Encarta too?? who can we trust? Only books? What if the book was written by a Spokane native? I think books are the least verifiable of all sources -one needs the book to verify the facts.

Regarding the UW reference, Ive been searching for a replacement for the University of Washington reference, but I havent yet found one I liked better. I wanted a source that is an authority on just Geography -but these sources also seem to be hard to come by. But, that source is a University source, and I (and most people I believe) generally regard University sources to be reliable, and didnt see an issue with citing it until I found a better source.

Why exactly are self published sources are a problem in some of these places?

Example. If I wanted to know who built the Safari themed tower and the history of the Davenport Hotel, I would think the best authority on this issue is The Davenport Hotel website and those who maintain it. What alternate source do you recommend? A book about the relatively recent restoration of the Davenport Hotel and its' new Safari themed tower? I suppose I could get a newspaper, but would that satisfy you, it would probably be the Spokesman-Review...is this biased? Another example, if I wanted to know how tall Mount Spokane is, I would expect the website for the city-owned/affiliated Mt Spokane Ski Park website would be the best authority to reference. And, to get this issue cleared up, the citation was in reference to the height of the mountain, which is in fact, verified by the source.

These arent contentious like the figures from the Pontic Greek Genocide or whatnot, these issues and are unlikely to be manipulated if this is your concern. How is it POV that we are using self-published websites like these to confirm those facts. We arent consciously cherrypicking data like you suggest, we are trying to find the most reliable source. Using the Pontic Greek Genocide example, it is not as if we are cherrypicking the highest or lowest numbers to advance an agenda of sorts; I dont believe that the editors of this article are trying to distort the fact like you seem to suggest (I dont even live in Washington BTW).

Now in regard to the sentence you are referring to about Downtown, that was a verification of the dollar amount figure, not the fact that the downtown has undergone a rebirth. The latter I dont believe is likely to be challenged, and the former would seem to verify that conclusion.

"Also Healthcare in Spokane is considered excellent, and the quality of service attracts patients from beyond the region is either uncited or cited to one of the hospitals."

The first sentence is an intro to the topic, it is supposed to be verified by the following sentences, which show that Deaconess is a hospital that is considered a leader in several area and procedures such as heart and cardiovascular problems, and this is why it would most definitely draw some patients from outside of the Inland Northwest; the source is the Deaconess website. I guess I trust that Deaconess, a non-profit organization, is honest and are acting in good faith when they included that info on their website. I dont see why you are so distrustful of some of the institutions that are being used as references.

However, one thing that I am going to do that I just realized might be a problem and I do believeshold be re-referenced is Experience Spokane to one of the citations (the one that tells of Sacred Hearts specialties, etc...I do think this is a problem.

Newpapers, this article does use several news paper and journal articles (atleast 3 I know to be in the History section -Boom and Bust, and The Great Fire article, and the Idaho Yesterdays journal. Also, is there a ratio newpaper/journal-website ratio that must be maintained?

I respect your opinion, karanacs, but before I take drastic measures and remove HistoryLink, The Davenport website, etc, I would like to know what others think of the issues you raised. I think that is going overboard. Anon134 (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no, the point of FAC isn't to "diagnose problems so we can impove the aritcle and Wikipedia". That's what WP:Peer Review is for. This is to recognize WP's best work, and if it's a little short, help it over the hump. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, ok then...with the addition of that goal in mind. But this is still a process where problems can be diagnosed and addressed, so we can hopefully improve the quality of the article. My point is, I still think that the process should be finished, even if it is gauranteed to fail. This is am opportunity to figure out what the current and future editors should do. Anon134 (talk) 03:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Took another look at Wynecoop reference, it seems he did publish his own book. I dont know if Wikipedia has a policy against this, Ive only been on Wikipedia about a month in a half or so and dont know. If that is a problem, I would like to know, and then I will scout out a new source. Being self published however doesnt automatically make him a bad source or not an authority on the topic. With the selected chapters that they included on the Wellpinit website. Here is a portion of the books bibliography:

Brown, Wm. Compton.,The Indian Side of the Story, Spokane, 1961.

Cataldo, Joseph M., "Sketch of Spokane Mission," unpublished manuscript in Oregon Province Archives, Spokane, n. d.

Curtis, Edward S., The North American Indian, Cambridge, 1907-1930, 20 vols.

Dee, Henry Drummond, The Journal of John Work, Victoria, 1945.

Drury, Clifford M., A Tepee in His Front Yard, A Biography of H. T., One of the Four Founders of the City of Spokane, Washington., Portland, 1949.

Drury, Clifford M., Elkanah and Walker, Pioneers Among the Spokanes, Caldwell, 1940.

Drury, Clifford M. [Editor],First White Women Over the Rockies, Diaries,, Letters., and Biographical Sketches of the Six Women of the Oregon Mission who made the Overland Journey in 1836 and 1838, Glendale, 1963-1966, 3 vols.

Durham, N. W. History of the City of and Washington, From Its Earliest Settlement to the Present Time, Chicago, 1912,, 3 vols.

Eells, Myron, Father Eells or The Results of Fifty-Five Years of Missionary Labors in Washington and Oregon, Boston and Chicago', 1894.

Ewers, John C., Gustavus Sohon's Portraits of Flathead and Pend d' Oreille Indians, 1854, Washington,, 1948.

Fuller, George W., A History of the Pacific Northwest, New York, 1931.

Hagan, Pauline [Compiler],Legends of the Spokanes [mimeograph], [Spokane], 1967.

Jessett, Thomas E., Chief Spokan Garry 1811-1892, Christian, Statesman, and Friend of the White Man, Minneapolis, 1960.

Kappler, Charles J., Indian Affairs Laws and Treaties, Washington, 1904-1941, 5 vols.

Kip, Lawrence,Life on the Pacific; A Journal of the Expedition the Northern Indians, the Tribes of the Coeur d' Alenes Spokans, and Pelouzes, in the Summer of 1858, New York, 1859.

Lewis, William S., The Case of Spokane Garry, Spokane [1917]

Lewis, William S., and Murakami, Naojiro, Ranald MacDonald, The Narrative of his life on the Columbia under the Hudsonn's Bay Company's regime; Of his experiences in the Pacific Whale Fishery and of his great Adventure to with a sketch of his later life on the Western Frontier 1824-1894, Spokane, 1923...

I will keep trying to find better sources as always, but I believe this to be an absolutely unacceptable source. Anon134 (talk) 03:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

"My point is, I still think that the process should be finished, even if it is gauranteed to fail." I admire your persistence, and would normally help with the identification of issues, but a) I'm about to sign off b) FAC is so backlogged that we can't waste reviewer resources on an article that, by your own admission, is likely to fail. I recommend withdrawing the nomination, starting a peer review, and asking those who commented on this FAC to add their comments to the peer review. That way, the article is being improved (without having to wait) and FAC's burden is lessened. Disregard my suggestion if you want, but I think it is the best course of action. Regards Dabomb87 (talk) 05:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Just a note on HistoryLink. It is technically a self-published source, but it is maintained by local historians/writers and is considered the pre-eminent history site for Washington history, particularly that of King County and Seattle.[2][3] I'm not sure when it expanded to include coverage of the rest of Washington, but considering the good stuff/reputation it has for King County and Seattle history, I don't see why it wouldn't be passed on to its coverage of the rest of Washington. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 16:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

comment Could someone please organize the responses into threads to make it easier to figure out what is being replied to? I've totally lost track of things, and proper threading of responses would help greatly with keeping track of things. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

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