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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:58, 29 June 2010 [1].

Sonic and the Secret Rings

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Sonic and the Secret Rings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because after a successful GAN, VG peer review, copyedit helpfully provided by Zeality, and final quick run-through (that wasn't on purpose) by me, I believe it is up to standards with the other VG FA's. Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Brianboulton

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Sources issues

Otherwise sources seem OK. Brianboulton (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ost316

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Prose
  • Some of the text seems disjoint or incomplete. Here are some areas that I noted and potential ways to clarify:
  • Sonic completes the story in the "Adventure" mode; the player can also select "Party" and "Special Book" modes seems as if it could use a bit more transition for the previous paragraph. Perhaps along the lines of, The game's story is completed in "Adventure" mode, with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player, unless players can only select those modes after completing story mode (in which case that should probably be mentioned, too). Following this sentence, Party is not in quotes but Storybook is.
  • Maybe change Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances; they do not recognize him, and Shahra insists that Sonic's perception is mistaken to Though Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances, they...
  • The explanation of Fire Souls should probably be separated from the rest of the sentence with a colon or emdash instead of a comma.
  • Add what it means to hold the Wiimote like a traditional controller: He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is intended to be held pointing sideways like a traditional gamepad.
  • I considered suggesting horizontally, but I've never played the game so I'm having trouble picturing which orientation it would be held by the player within the horizontal plane (is the d-pad to the left or to the front). Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think of the 'mote as being used as traditional gamepad when it is used similar to a NES controller. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just because I guessed correctly does not mean that it is explained well enough; I should not have to guess which way the d-pad goes. Do sources or the instruction manual refer to it this way with no clarification to orientation within the horizontal plane? As Jinnai and Hellknowz point out below about wikilinking gamer terms, readers unfamiliar with a traditional gamepad or the wiimote may not understand what this orientation means. —Ost (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, but he boasts that he is immortal; Sonic reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. to During the battle, Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, who subsequently boasts that he is immortal. Sonic then reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. A semicolon doesn't seem to link the thoughts well enough.
  • Secret Rings is three-dimensional and uses the PhysX engine. seems out of place.

—Ost (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for considering and acting on my suggestions. The article seems well-written and well-sourced. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by H3llkn0wz

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Resolved comments from —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a comment.
  • "Producer/Director", "Lead Game Design", "Art & Field Art Director" - is there a particular reason they are capitalized? I would say work titles aren't proper nouns. "sound director" isn't capitalized.
  • "3D" is linked in gameplay and not in lead. I would avoid linking such short word "3D" before another link, it can easily be misinterpreted as a 3D platform link.
  • "de facto sidekick" - is redundant "de facto" really needed here? As fancy as it sounds, "throughout the game" already establishes that the side-kick is constantly there. As much as I love placing Latin phrases here and there, this is of little benefit to the reader.
  • "and Sonic dies if he touched an enemy without any rings" - does this instalment not feature death by spikes and such? Also "if he touches".
  • "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions, which advance him levels as in role-playing video games." - "which" is ambiguous - it is experience points and not missions that advance him. So "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions and advances in levels as in role-playing video games."
  • Sonic can be wikilinked Sonic the Hedgehog (character) as first mention in non-lead. Same for Shahra who may have an article one day as unlikely it may be. Same for "Genie of the Lamp" at The Genie.
    • Sonic is already linked in the second sentence of gameplay, his first non-lead mention. Also, linking Shahra would create a redlink, which just don't look good and should be avoided. The Genie→done, though. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, yeah, Sonic was linked in gameplay, my bad. Who exactly is The Genie - Shahra or "Genie of the Lamp from the story of Aladdin and the Magic Lamp"? The prose definitely suggests the latter one, but you linked the former. Shahra is not a redlink and even if it was there is nothing against redlinks even in FA. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • You're right; my bad; done. Concerning Shahra, though, FACs are specifically not supposed to link to disambiguation pages, as it looks like an error. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's not a disambiguation page, that's a sub-section of a list of characters. Noone has yet added Shahra, but I can create a header for her if you are that concerned with a half-broken link.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:50, 25 June 2010 (UTC) It's for characters appearing multiple times, so probably not worth it. I doubt she'll be featured. Withdrawing.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game uses a system of experience points and levels, as well as special moves." Would explicitly saying that this is different from other series games be appropriate as that was probably your intention.
  • "on-rails style of movement" is completely unexplained for unfamiliar reader, especially without any wikilinks.
  • "Sonic then disposes of the lamp in the "Evil Foundry" level" - disposes how? why is the level name significant to mention but not explain further?
  • "Sonic runs through the book until he finds a way home." - finds a way home how?
  • "Bettenhausen noted that "[t]he controls feel" - if the [t] represent uncapitalized "T", then I'm not sure it's needed, it doesn't really improve the meaning and only confuses.
  • "Players brake with the 1 button and jump with the 2 button." This comes out of nowhere with assumption reader is familiar with both Sonic's possible action and gamepad's buttons.
    • Done. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It still assumes player even knows what Sonic can do. The section does not explain the "obvious" basics - jumping, braking. Is there dash? Are there power-ups? Somewhere later it mentioned constant running but also reversing? I think it needs more "never seen a Sonic" game material for the FA to stand on its own.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:28, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Something like "Sonic constantly runs forward, with player directing his sideways movement with Wii. Player can brake with the 1 button and jump with the 2 button of blah blah"? I've never played this so I'm guessing. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Slightly reworded. But it already says that "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right stilts his movement in the corresponding direction." That explains sideways movement, as well as speeding up and slowing down. Power-ups and dashing are covered later in the "skills" paragraph, and jumping and braking are covered when it explains the controls. It's unlikely that players wouldn't know where jumping is coming from, because the article already states that it's a platform game. Tezero (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "homing attack" - I suspect more clarification on this is needed as as well.
    • Done... I think. Can you tell what it means? Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "a move which propels him forward in mid-air" - only mid-air? So "him forward from mid-air" would be better. "locking onto" as in automatic target-lock? Does it automatically alter Sonic's direction to hit multiple targets? Or does is only target one distant enemy? If so, "locking onto" is probably unnecessary.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:28, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Slightly reworded... it is an automatic target lock. It's like, his direction is dependent on the enemies he locks onto, but generally they're all in about the same direction. Tezero (talk) 22:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I only skimmed throught Story, Development, Reception sections for now. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 14:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • "As in other Sonic games, Sonic collects rings" - "Sonic" twice in a row reads bad, perhaps: "Like in other franchise's games, Sonic collects rings".
  • "Sonic collects rings as a form of health" - does the manual actually say "form of health" or is this OR?
  • "Different from previous titles" -> "unlike previous titles" - "different" reads strange if not incorrect at the start of sentence.
  • "at the last designated checkpoint" - "designated" how? Can "visited" be used instead (if that is how it works)? Otherwise, the word can be skipped.
  • "Sonic has 104 special moves called "skills" unlocked over the course of the game, usually upon reaching certain levels." - what are the other ways to unlock skills? Were they not mentioned because they are trivial?
  • "The player can distribute these skills to four "Skill Rings" - I assume it's only 4 skills per Ring, but this may need a slight rewording to explicitly state that.
  • "Skills aid Sonic in various ways, such as increasing speed, acceleration, braking, initial speed upon landing, and offensive or defensive power, as well as providing him with special attacks." -> "Skills can provide Sonic with improved movement, offensive, and defensive capabilities, as well as special attacks." - shortened, less specifics, some descriptive adjectives can be added (e.g., "enhanced").
  • "minigames that employ the Wii Remote's motion sensing technology" - is that an important distinction?
  • ""Fire Souls": small fiery objects" -> ""Fire Souls" — small fiery objects" - Mdash should be generally used instead of colon unless listing a number of items.
  • "Skills are generally used by depleting the "Soul Gauge", shown on the right side of the screen and slowly filled by collecting pearls scattered throughout the levels." -> "Skills are used by depleting the "Soul Gauge", which is slowly filled by collecting pearls scattered throughout the levels." - "generally" - are there other methods to use skills? Since the location of Soul Gauge is shown in the image with description, I don't think it is worth mentioning. Its location carries little significance to how it's used, but the sentence becomes cluttered.
    • Removed location, but kept "generally". Not all of them deplete the Soul Gauge; for example, one of them gives him a rocket start upon commencing a level, and one simply increases his speed during the entirety of the time it is on. Tezero (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player" - not a good sentence - "available" is an adjective, not a verb.
  • "Sonic and the Secret Rings features three game modes — "Adventure", "Party", and "Special Book". The game's story is played in the Adventure mode. The Party mode features..." - this immediately lists the three modes, and then proceeds to explain them. I could not think of a better way (considering Ost316's suggestion). The current version ties the explanation of Adventure mode with introduction to other modes, and no matter how rephrased, it still feels poorly fragmented.
  • semicolon - although it clearly separated the thoughts, it isn't easy on reading.

*I assume homing attack is a major Wii thing for this game? If so, it should be mentioned, though after fully explaining its meaning, it does seem overly descriptive, so:

**"along his path" - grammar

Altered: "Sonic the Hedgehog, the series' main character, is the game's only player character. He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is held horizontally like a traditional gamepad.[2] Sonic is constantly running and players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller. Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons. Thrusting the Wii Remote forwards performs a special attack from mid-air targeting and damaging enemies along his path."
  • That seems contradicting. It says that he's always running forward, but that the player can change his direction. It's more like, when you tilt the controller, his movement is more in that direction but still overall forward. The way it is now implies that if you tilt it forward, he goes faster, and if you tilt it backward, he goes slower or even backwards, as well as the stuff about moving to either side. Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really nice reception, btw. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for doing all the "other stuff"! —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I know I am nitpicky and the collapsed box now spans several "scroll-downs". But I also respect the work you do to correct these after having already reread and rechecked the article time and time again! So don't get discouraged on this. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 00:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I appreciate your being thorough and willing to return more than once with more comments. Hopefully the article meets your standard for FAs. Tezero (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As per Jinnai, gameplay may indeed be shifting into crufty due to non-gamer explanations. I realize I contributed to this. To answer the issue, I suggest shortening the material. I'll propose a copyedit (with detailed comments) of the first part for now:
  • (Assuming above is not accepted) "He runs along a predesignated path by default" - this is a matter of preference, but "by default" sounds like a very mechanical language. Also it is partially redundant to "predesignated".
  • "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right tilts his movement in the corresponding direction." -> "...players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller". This should be placed before jump/halt mechanics, as it is more important and directly relevant to his constant running. The "left/right" sentence is excessively wordy; I believe "tilt" already explicitly explains all that. I think saying - "Sonic constantly runs" -and- "players turn with Wii" fits nicely into a single sentence.
  • (skipped some text) Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons" - correct word and spell out. I used "corresponding" because it stuck in my mind from the tilt sentence. Although it still implies the same thing — there is a button to jump and a button to brake. You could add "respective controller buttons for these actions" if you really want to stress out that these buttons correspond to these actions, although I cannot see how that is not already obvious. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He"->"Sonic" - just a little variety from "he".
  • Next big thing is jump and brake(halt?) (and I would list these in that order, as jumping is far more Sonic style than braking). Button position on gamepad is how-to, so I would exclude it. I agree that saying this is done via buttons (as opposed to Wii motion) is important to distinguish. Also, does Sonic actually halt and stop or only slows down?
  • "homing attack, a move" -> "special move" - reduce redundancy and removes the need to explain "homing" part unless it is really important? Are the words "homing attack" repeatedly mentioned in the manual?
  • "which propels him forward" - perhaps unnecessary? I think this is one of the least useful parts.
  • "Like in other games in the series, Sonic collects..." - newline preferred, this is a long paragraph and rings/live/checkpoints/levels can be seperated to a new para.

Comments by Jinnai

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  • Comments
  • After further review I would have to Oppose it at this time. There are numerous problems with this article that I could easily spot.
Resolved issues

Went through the article some more and found some other stuff.

  • You have an excess and arbitray number of links in gameplay section. I realize this is a video game, but you link to a lot off commonly used terms like boss while ignoring stuff like unlockable content. I basically think this section needs to be weened of most of the links except where they are core elements of the game. Boss fights don't appear to be that important as say Shadow of the Colossus. That one doesn't even link to it and you'll notice it has only a few links in gameplay. This also pertains to other sections such as linking to oil lamp which is not really relevant as far as I can tell anymore than the word people which isn't wikilinked.

    The reason I say to renove links is because of what many links posted near each other does.

    • The oil lamp is an iconic object in the original Arabian Nights. Besides, how often do you see someone walking around with an oil lamp? It's not a common topic. About the gameplay elements that are linked... about every game article does this, and for good reason: frankly, non-gamers do not always know what a boss battle or checkpoint is, for example. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oil lamp is marginally questionable as it is key symbol of djinns and 1000nights. Many gaming terms, however, should be linked or explained. The audience is an intelligent general population reader and not necessarily a gamer, which video game articles often forget.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see a Famitsu rating. I would expect to see one for a Sonic game.
  • improper use of {{cquote}}. That template is used for Pull-quotes. Furthermore as this doesn't appear to be a long quote or paragraph, it should be incorporated into the paragraph and not use a blockquote.
  • The plot section could use some prose cleanup such as:
  • Their enemy is Erazor Djinn, a djinn who aspires to erase the entirety of the Arabian Nights book. -using the word djinn to describe a djinn??
  • While sleeping after reading the Arabian Nights, Sonic is awoken by Shahra. -rewrite
  • Erazor opportunistically tells Sonic that he will remove the arrow if Sonic gathers the World Rings for him. If Sonic does not do so before the flame goes out, his "life is forfeit". - looks as though this should be one sentance
  • o keep them out of Erazor's hands, Sonic wishes for Shahra to do what she truly thinks is right, and she collapses to the ground. - you collapse "on" or "ontop of" the ground, not "to" the ground.
  • These are just some examples that i could easily spot so don't take this as meaning that's all that's wrong with the prose.
  • Gameplay section seems to get too WP:GAMEGUIDEy with giving explicit instructions on how to do various moves.
  • Don't go and quote modes and other text like skills per MOS:TEXT. Outside of the quotes I don't see anything that needs special quotations around it to emphasize it.
  • Can someone check the stability and credibility of Sonic News Netwrok and make certain it doesn't violate WP:ELNEVER doesn't have problems with the open wiki portion of WP:ELNO.

陣内Jinnai 21:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Sonic wii.jpg - where was this taken? It may, and I'm not saying it does, have copyright issues if it was taken someplace private where not many pictures were taken or in a restircted area. Since it is inside a building and the user did not state where it was taken I'm raising this just to be certain.陣内Jinnai 03:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It looks like an exhibition, E3-like thing. The image description doesn't say. Tezero (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I saw you restored this image and I have to agree with Jinnai that there are probably issues with the image. Even if the location didn't have restrictions on pictures, the costume is a likely derivative work. Moreover, I don't get what this image adds over a traditional screenshot nor why a picture of a tv screen showing the game would be have less restrictive copyright than a normal screenshot. If the image is ok and is going to be used, it should be explained why it is being used in the caption; what I'm assuming is the Soul Gauge is the only element I can make out. —Ost (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Technically, it's a free image and is used on several other Wikipedias with no fair use rationale. I guess you're right, though. The source file doesn't say what exhibition it's from. Tezero (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Giants2008

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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