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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:52, 21 April 2007.

Smells Like Teen Spirit

[edit]

Self-nomination A thorough and exhaustively referenced GA on the most important rock song of the 1990s. Just finished a very helpful peer review complete with commentary by individuals responsible for several GA and FA-level song articles. The best possible sources have been used (ranging from magazines and documentaries to respected mainstream media and books on music history and theory), the text has been revised numerous times in order to create effective, engaging, and efficient prose, and all fair use media have rationales. I've worked thoroughly to make this the best possible song article, and I hope I have achieved that goal. WesleyDodds 14:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It used to be two paragraphs (split at "Cobain disliked . . .") but I thought the second paragraph was too insubstantial, and it felt like too much an extension of the previous paragraph to leave alone. WesleyDodds 21:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support. Wow. This is really an outstanding article. Very comprehensive, thoroughly sourced, and absolutely compelling to read. And I consider myself not easy to please. This is great work. Mangojuicetalk 19:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support- all the points from the peer review have been implemented and I feel this article now meets the FA criteria. Well done! Thunderwing 20:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support- Meets all FA criteria, well written, comprehensive, well referenced. Good job! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 01:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I listed some stuff at the peer review, and it's all been addressed. Overall a well-written, comprehensive article. ShadowHalo 03:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • One thing...: in the section titled "Live Performance" in the first paragraph is a direct quote from an alternative performance of the song that is unreferenced. This needs fixing. Its a minor thing, but it should be fixed if this is really featureable. The unreferenced quote says there are notable differences between it and the final version. For example, the first performance started with "Come out and play, make up the rules" instead of the eventual opening of "Load up on guns, bring your friends". I do not doubt the validity of this, but when making direct quotes like this, it should be referenced... --Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reference is the performance on the With the Lights Out DVD. It's mentioned in the preceeding sentence that that's where it's featured, so an inline citation seemed unnecessary. WesleyDodds
Well, maybe the ref could be moved to the end of the paragraph since that way it is more clear it is referencing the entire paragraph, and not just the sentance it follows?--Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, looking at the paragraph again, the source(s) of the live performance is/are mentioned both before and after that sentence. I don't know, I think it's pretty clear in the text that there are multiple releases that contain the performance and thus verify the different lyrics, but if anyone else thinks an inline citation is needed then we can put one in. WesleyDodds 04:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add "Teen Spirit" as an alternative name at the beginning of the article in order to avoid confusion. I also don't see why either name is used randomly throughout the article.
  • In the years since Nirvana's breakup, listeners and critics have continued to praise "Smells Like Teen Spirit" as one of the greatest rock songs ever - Remove "listeners" as likely original research.
  • ...would become a much-emulated template in alternative rock because of "Teen Spirit" - "Would become" > "became". Replace "Teen Spirit" with "the song" here due to the paragraph's first sentence.
  • The single was also successful in other countries around the world - "Around the world" redundant.
  • Germany's Atari Teenage Riot sampled "Smells Like Teen Spirit" in their song "Atari Teenage Riot," from their 1997 album Burn, Berlin, Burn! - Change first "their" to "the".
  • ...for the "Teen Spirit" single - "the single" redundant.
  • Avoid inserting the website name inside the external links. Michaelas10 16:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The occasional use of "Teen Spirit" was suggested by Ceoil in order to make some of the text flow better. It's a short-hand version of the title used often in sources; I don't think we need to necessarily single it out as an alternate name in the lead because it isn't one. It's like how we don't use Kurt Cobain's full name throughout; it just reads better.
    • Polls of the public are among those listed in the acclaim section, so yes it is accurate.
    • Fixed
    • Rephrased
    • Fixed
    • Fixed
    • I don't quite understand what you mean. Can you clarify? WesleyDodds 23:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suggest that it should clarify this name because it can be easily confuzed with the deodorant. If its not an official alternative name, you can add "also shortened to "Teen Spirit"" in the lead's first sentence. Note that this name should be used throughout the entire article, rather than shortened only at random instances. My final suggestion meant that the words "the" and "single" of the sentence are unnecessary. Michaelas10 14:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was referring to the point below it, about the external links. WesleyDodds 00:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ok, now that the link issue is fixed, back to the "Teen Spirit" suggestion. I'm adverse to listing an alternate title in the lead because it isn't one; it's just shorthand that many writers (and even bandmembers) have used merely for the sake of readability. Apt examples are the Star Wars prequel films; the films have very long titles, but are often shortened to Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith throughout the prose. I don't anticipate confusion with the deodorant since it's only mentioned in one paragraph in the article. A possible source of confusion (quotation marks on the product name when they don't belong; quotes should only be on a song name) has been fixed. WesleyDodds 11:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak OpposeSupport—1a. Nice work, but the article still needs a runthrough by one or two copy-editors to weed out lingering issues. Most of these might be subjective (hence the weak oppose), but they will help improve the prose to an even higher professional standard. Examples from the lead and first section:
    • "...the song is based upon a verse-chorus form where the main four-chord riff is used during the intro and chorus to create an alternating loud and quiet dynamic." Try using "on" instead of "upon", which can be considered misplaced formality.
    • Watch out for redundant use of "also".
    • "Teen Spirit" was Nirvana's first and biggest hit..." Instead of an abbreviated version of the title, you can just say "The song was..."
    • Instead of using rare words like "plaudits", try using more accessable words like "acclaim" and "praised". This will not diminish the wording. On the contrary; it will help a wider audience understand the idea.
    • "In a January 1994 Rolling Stone interview, Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain revealed that "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was an attempt to write a song in the style of the Pixies; a band he greatly admired." Semicolon does not belong here; use a regular comma instead.
    • "Cobain did not begin to write "Smells Like Teen Spirit" until a few weeks before recording was due to start on their second album, Nevermind, in 1991". Awkward sentence. "Was due to start"?
    • The "Wait" in the quotation "Wait a minute..." should be lowercase. Check for similar issues throughout the article.
    • "As a result all three band members are credited as songwriters." Personally, prefer commas after "as a result", but that's just me.
    • "Prior to the start of the Nevermind recording sessions..." Try "before" instead of "prior to" — I've often been slammed for using "prior to" on Wikipedia, and I can undestand why: "Before" is straightforward and just as good.
    • "Vig suggested some minor arrangement changes to the song..." The word "some" is redundant.
  • Again, nice work; it just needs tweaking by someone unfamiliar with the text. These examples are from the lead and first section only. I'd normally help with the copy-edit, but I've been slammed with end-of-semester work. — Deckiller 08:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed the points you listed, among others. I constantly attempt to improve the article several times a day, so I pick up on the grammar issues myself sooner or later. I'll comb through the article further soon. There are a few points that I feel aren't problems, mainly the word usage. Sometimes "the song" is used instead of the full song name, but "Teen Spirit" is useful in order to reduce the feeling of redundancy when reading several paragraphs. Using "the song" repeatedly becomes boring fast and can give the prose a stilted quality. As for "also", it's used to create a flow through the prose, connecting the previous sentence to the current one and thus (attempting) to make the reader feel like the prose has a forward momentum. Basically, it's to enhance readability and get the reader engaged in the prose. WesleyDodds 09:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've come to realize that use of additive terms is fine to a degree, but is often overdone (every sentence is in addition to the previous sentence). However, I don't see it being overused in this article; it was merely a point that I've had drilled in my head by several copy-editors. As for the first point, I agree that other variations of "the song" should be used, and I see you implemented that change in the next sentence instead. I changed "utilize" to "use"; many copy-editors dislike that word (myself included), and prefer to say "use" instead. — Deckiller 10:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, if you disagree with the word usage suggestions, then I won't call you out on that; they're mostly opinions, and not true issues. Anyway, what's your opinion on those latin words (prior, etc) and their relationship to formality? — Deckiller 10:28, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I missed that one. I'm rather indifferent on that. I've never seen "prior" as a problem; it seems like a pretty natural word. I've never thought of it as "Latin". But if you really feel I should change it, I can rewrite the sentence. WesleyDodds 10:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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