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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:46, 3 January 2011 [1].

Ramones (album)

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Ramones (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): CrowzRSA 21:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I obviously think that it meets the criteria. The legendary album has gone from a start class article, to GA, and to the current version. The Peer reviewer can't find anything, all the ISBNs are valid, and the article is of good size. Thanks, CrowzRSA 21:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for the time being.
  • Joey Ramone related: "Lisa came down to see us, she was blown away by us. She said that we changed her life, She started writing about us in Rock Scene, and then Lenny Kaye would write about us and we started getting more press like The Village Voice, word was getting out, and people starting coming down." - generally should put references for quotes straight after the sentence they appear in.
  • Craig Leon, who had seen them perform in the summer of 1975, and, even though they had not processed yet - it's not clear who Craig Leon is (I know there's a wikilink, but there should be something in the article too); and I don't understand what "they had not processed yet" means
  • The band performed in front of record companies Blue Sky and Arista Records in order to get a record deal.[13] After the Ramones signed to Sire Records they organized several local shows - this whole paragraph confuses me: they are offered a deal, they refuse the deal, they perform for other record companies, and suddenly they're signed for Sire? This needs expansion.
  • I've only read the first section, but it is clear this hasn't been proof-read, let alone copyedited. I found double words and missing quote marks, and glancing at the start of the next section I already see an out-of-place capital letter ("In early 1975 They took a temporary break"). Skimming the rest of the article, it looks as if the hard work of adding and referencing the content has been done; however, to be FA-standard the facts need to be presented fluently and articulately. A bit of work and I'm sure this can get there.
Trebor (talk) 01:16, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, looking at the first two sections again:
  • which led to the Ramones auditioning with Seymour, Craig Leon, and others - "Seymour" was used a few words earlier which isn't great prose; who are these "others", did they work for Sire records?; was this audition the one which led to the offer of a contract for a single?
  • but would eventually sign again to Sire Records - is this the contract for the single? Or did they get offered a new contract? They record an album in the next section, so it needs to be clear that it's for Sire, and that Sire were okay with it.
This section still doesn't read very well and is a bit unclear. Do we know the order of the events? Did Sire immediately offer an album deal after the single deal was rejected? Did The Ramones audition for other companies because they didn't have an album deal at the time, or because they didn't like Sire? Trebor (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In early 1975 they took a temporary break from their performances, in order to prepare to begin recording at Plaza Sound studio. - they started recording in early 1976, did their break last the full year? What preparations were they doing which lasted a year - technical issues, writing material, etc.?
  • It also took $6,400 to record. - stubby sentence, try to incorporate it a bit better. You don't really need the "also" because the previous sentence was referring to time not money.
  • Joey related: "Some albums were costing a half-million dollars to make and taking two or three years to record. - was this said in pride that they were able to make it so cheaply and quickly? Or was it more frustration that they weren't able to spend that much?
How do you know it was said in pride? I don't have the sources, so it's hard to make suggestions, sorry. Trebor (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to find the book right now, I'm pretty sure that it says something. CrowzRSA 17:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The recording process was similar to... - the sentence beginning with this changes tense at the end, and probably could be rewritten (or split) to make it a bit clearer. The following sentence has issues as well (The mixing of the recordings were also more modern techniques.)
  • The studio recording for the debut album has been expanded by Mickey Leigh and Craig Leon for percussion effects - I might be being stupid, but I don't understand what that means - expanded in what way? Trebor (talk) 16:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you understand what it means? Trebor (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it means that the drum beats originally have a low velocity, so it was mixed to increase the velocity, therefore elongating how long the drum beat lasts. If that makes sense. CrowzRSA 17:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think everything has been fixed. CrowzRSA 19:56, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Expanded might imply an overdub. Does the source support additional "percussion effects" were recorded by Mickey Leigh and Craig Leon? — GabeMc (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) Comments I haven't stricken out are ones I consider unresolved, and I have added additional comments for some of them. Looking further on in the article:
  • On January 6, 2004, Rhino Entertainment released "Blitzkrieg Bop" was released with "Sheena Is a Punk Rocker". - doesn't make sense.
  • "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend" was released in October 1976 as a seven inch single. The single was released with the tracks "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend", "California Sun", and "I Dont Wanna Walk Around with You" - it's hardly surprising that "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend" was released with the track "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend" on it - can be written better.
  • Several concerts were performed both before and after the album's release - does this "several" include the "thirty" gigs mentioned later on? If so, several seems a bit misleading. The whole sentence could go without losing much.
  • Nearly all of the gigs booked for the band in 1975 were in New York City, with Waterbury, Connecticut being the only concert outside of New York. - at least half the sentence is redundant, strip it down.
  • The album's lyrics consist of different concepts and structures. - does this just mean the lyrics aren't all about the same thing? I'm dubious that this sentence adds a great deal.
  • On second twenty of the song - does this mean "at the twentieth second"? Possibly worth clarifying.
  • and according to Nicholas Rombes - who is this guy? Why should I care about his opinion? Needs explaining.
  • The piece is resolved in the same way as the seconds twenty to thirty–three. - again, it is unclear what this means. Are the chords the same? Are the lyrics?
That's as far as I've got for the time being. I'll suggest again that you try to take a step back and reread what you've written, since there are still issues with fluency and understandability. I'm finding quite a few issues without looking too hard; a more thorough reviewer could probably find more. Regards, Trebor (talk) 03:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments, they've all been fixed. CrowzRSA 04:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dab/EL check - no dabs or dead external links; 2 external redirects which have been fixed. --PresN 06:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed
To get images of this quality and during this era, while not unknown is rare, and we occasionally have users upload content and tag it as free when it is not, I would like to have confidence that this image is correctly licensed, the simplest way to do this is for the uploader to submit an OTRS ticket Fasach Nua (talk) 21:31, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I notified the uploader
Image review pending (FA Criteria 3) Fasach Nua (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:SilkTork recently moved it from Ramones (Ramones album) to Ramones (album) probably because the only other album named Ramones is a cover album on the Ramones by another band. SilkTork didn't give a reason in their edit summary. CrowzRSA 19:54, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Cites to this book; Nicholas, Rombes (2005). Ramones (33⅓). Continuum. ISBN 9780826416711., use 2006 as the date, while the ref states 2005. — GabeMc (talk) 23:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the ref: "Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk", uses a specific date of April 13, 2006 while the other refs state just the year. — GabeMc (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The refs should be listed alphabetically. — GabeMc (talk) 23:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I meant alphabetically by author not title, I went ahead and fixed this, hope you don't mind. — GabeMc (talk) 02:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There is some inconsistency in the cite templates used in the article. For example some cites to Leigh, Mickey (2009). I Slept With Joey Ramone: A Family Memoir. Touch Stone. ISBN 9780743252164, are Harvnb, while others are not. The article should be consistent throughout, whatever style you prefer. — GabeMc (talk) 03:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This article needs a top-to-bottom rewrite; it has problems more fundamental than those that can be fixed by a mere copy-edit or two:

  • A long and rambly lead with abrupt sentences completely disconnected from one another. Just take a look at the third paragraph:
The album features several themes, including Nazism, violence, male prostitution and drug use. It has fourteen tracks and is twenty-nine minutes and four seconds long. The group covered the song "Let's Dance" by Chris Montez. Several of the tracks have backing vocals which were sung by Mickey Leigh, Tommy Ramone, and executive producer/engineer Rob Freeman. The album received very high ratings by reviewers, with Allmusic and Rolling Stone, both rewarding it with a maximum rating of five out of five stars. Robert Christgau gave the album an A, writing "For me, it blows everything else off the radio."
  • No differentiation between contemporary reviews (i.e. from 1976) and retrospectives. The Reception section seems to suggest that Ramones was critically acclaimed upon its release in 1976 by quoting a review from the website Allmusic about the album's merits.
  • Content in the Reception and Legacy sections is confused and overlapping. Why is the Billboard chart position mentioned in both sections? Why are four retrospective "greatest album ever" lists from the 90s and 00s in the Reception section, and one in Legacy? And does that long quote from the Rock Hall discuss the band or the album?
  • Please see In_Utero_(album)#Music_and_lyrics for how to write a Composition section. Avoid a song-by-song discussion in favour of lyrical and musical themes found throughout the record. This is especially true for the music on Ramones, as most of the songs are so similar-sounding, and hence don't really merit individual discussion.
  • Unreliable sources: Super Seventies, Foo Archive, Rockometer.

Apart from these there's the long list of grammatical errors ("Soon after the demos release"), MOS errors ("heard separately on the stereo channels — electric bass on the left"), overlinking (punk rock, Rolling Stone and Allmusic are all linked twice in the lead) and, I suspect, incorrectly quoted text ("with women sitting aroing"), among other things.—indopug (talk) 18:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would love to see Ramones on the main page of wikipedia, but this article does need a complete rewrite. The introductory paragraph should be enough, from the article, that it suffices for a read about the topic, namely the album. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramones_(album) pre-signing by Sire, Lisa Robinson popularizing the band, the band's potential manager, a pre-Ramones demo and its release, then the band "performing under the Sire Records company," there's got to be something about the album in the lead. This album was a major influence on American punk and other music, yet there is no sense of this whatsoever, until a glimmer of hope erupts in the fourth paragraph. As prominent as Lisa Robinson is in the first paragraph, the article might as well be about her, not the album. And who are Danny Fields and Seymour Stein that they deserve mentioning in the lead paragraph without any discussion of who they are?

Who cares how much it cost to make the album? Oh, wait, back then it cost a lot more than that to produce a cheap single, that's not much money. The costs are meaningless without any comparison. Cool that the cover art is so great, one of my all time favorites, but that's just one more thing that's primary to the music, and, really, that's what an album is: music.

Then the next section. Robinson wrote about the Ramones in Rock Scene, but the fact that she was an editor at twice-wikilinked Hit Parader takes more prominence than whatever she wrote in Rock Scence.

What are ""progressive" force bands from Europe under contract"? The instruments took three days to do what? Or it took three days to record the instrumental tracks? Is that unusually long? No, it's a very short time. The Joey comment is good, but it needs backed up. This was discussed in the music industry for a long time, and is still discussed today, how little time and money was spent for an album of such long-lasting impact on the music industry.

The Beatles comparison sentences needed a direct citation to one of them. What's the significance of using the same mic locations as orchestras? Live orchestra recordings? Studio orchestra recordings? How's it different from rock recordings? What are "four-track recording representation of the devices," of what "devices?" What does that mean? The album was "expanded by Mickey Leigh and Craig Leon for percussion effects"? What does that mean, they added more percussion tracks? Whose?

Who's Arturo Vega? What's a passport photo machine?

"In 1974, the band performed at thirty gigs, that were nearly all at CBGB. All but one of the band's 1975 gigs were booked for New York City, with Waterbury, Connecticut being the only concert outside of New York. In 1976, over seventy concerts were performed, each to support Ramones. There were over a hundred concerts performed in 1977 by the band.[28]"

It's a recitation of numbers. About gigs. Not about the album.

Beat on the Brat was sung in a video camera mode. This makes no sense.

"Ramones was released April 23, 1976.[55][56][57][58]" I'm glad we've confirmed the release date with 4 sources, to be certain, but how about a single authoritative citation?

The Reception section is difficult to follow and jumbled up with contemporaneous and later reviews. Most of the article is not ordered well. I don't think it's close to a FA, as much as I would love to see it on the main page. --Kleopatra (talk) 01:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ALT is pretty bad for the cover and band's image. According to ALT give poor descriptions to images is not helpful.
  • Infobox
US & UK -> WP:&
  • Lead
American punk rock band the Ramones, who are widely cited as the first punk rock band. -> repeated twice in the same line, requesting synonyms.
No sources in the WP:Lead
the album the in February -> typo
Leon, and co-produced by drummer Tommy Ramone -> Wikilink them
author of the 33⅓ book Ramones -> Why it is linked to Book sources?
  • Background
Link the band, never linked after lead
Joey Ramone related... -> who was Ramone?
and said that they would produce -> you can ommit "that"
Arista Records -> link it
  • Recording and production
Joey related -> synonyms needed
In 2004, Craig Leon -> craig is already mentioned.
Tommy Ramone was planning -> ommit his surname, already mentioned
The album was produced by Craig Leon, -> redundant, already mentioned "Producer Craig Leon, who had seen..."
co-produced by drummer Tommy Ramone -> overlinked
The studio recording for the debut album has been expanded -> has been?
Nicholas Rombes said that the production's quality -> Nicholas Rombes, which is/was notable due to, said the production's quality
  • Photography and cover art
to the 1964 Beatles -> overlinked
  • Promotion
on Ramones: "Blitzkrieg Bop" and "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend". "Blitzkrieg Bop" was released -> on Ramones: "Blitzkrieg Bop" and "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend". The first was released
and "I Dont Wanna Walk Around with You" as b-sides -> consistency needed.
All but one of the band's 1975 gigs -> All, but one of the band's 1975 gigs,
  • Composition
Johnny said that the when writing the -> typo
"Blitzkrieg Bop", -> overlinked
Tommy Ramone. -> Overlinked
New York City. -> idem as above
—Joey Ramone -> idem
Joey saw some mother going after a kid with a bat -> is me or this is grammatically incorrect, should not be "a mother"?
one minute and 32 -> consistency with you numbers
the slowest and the only romantically colored piece on the album, -> POV?
The text has themes of irony and humor and depiction of violence -> The text has themes of irony, humor and depiction of violence.
piece pays homage to love songs in pop music acts of the 1960s. -> piece pays homage to love songs in pop music acts of the 1960s.
The album's length is twenty-nine minutes and four seconds, and features fourteen tracks.[14] -> shouldn't go first?
  • Reception
Specify why Allmusic is two times.
Ramones was released April 23, 1976.[55][56][57][58] -> Irrelevant for the section
Reviewing for Allmusic -> Not a magazine and overlinked
Jeff Tamarkin of Allmusic -> as above
was ranked thirty-three in Rolling Stone's "500 Greatest Albums of All Time."[62] -> was ranked thirty-three in Rolling Stone's The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time".[62]
In Spin's 1995 Alternative Record -> In Spin's 1995 Alternative Record
  • Legacy
the 33⅓ book Ramones wrote -> why is linked
The album made little commercial impact, reaching only number 111 on the Billboard album chart. Neither of the album's singles, "Blitzkrieg Bop" and "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend", ever charted.[69] -> many issues: 1) Full of POV that makes you feel like "poor album, it was not successful" 2) reaching only number 111 on the Billboard album chart was mentioned above 3) Overlinked
  • Track listing
I was wondering why it has references (for the original LP only)
  • Chart positions
Alphabetical order
Swedish charts -> why it is italiced and why link to Sweden?
  • References
All books need where they were published
ISBN of Ramones: The Complete Twisted History. is wrong, that is from I Slept With Joey Ramone
  • Notes
Ref 1 has a typo (ramones)
Ref 14 need the format in which Ramones was released
Ref 24 -> if it is a book or a magazine need much more information, such as authors, ISBN/ISSN and page(s)
Ref 26 -> AllMusic. --> Allmusic, and need its publisher
Ref 33 needs an update on its title
Ref 54, 60, 75 and 76 as above
Ref 63, 65, 66 need publisher
Ref 77 -> reimprove it.

Oppose, sadly. The article, especially the lead, is very disjointed, with short disconnected 'bullet-point' like sentences. It has fourteen tracks and is twenty-nine minutes and four seconds long. The group covered the song "Let's Dance" by Chris Montez. Several of the tracks have backing vocals which were sung by Mickey Leigh, Tommy Ramone, and executive producer/engineer Rob Freeman.. The legacy section seems underdeveloped, given the lasting impact of the album. Ceoil 15:11, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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