Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ramandu's daughter/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2018 [1].

Ramandu's daughter

Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! The above article is about a fictional character in The Chronicles of Narnia series of juvenile fantasy novels by the British novelist C. S. Lewis. Introduced in the author's 1952 book The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, she marries Prince Caspian and becomes the queen of Narnia. In the 1953 novel The Silver Chair, the Lady of the Green Kirtle, in the form of a snake, kills her though she later reappears in the 1956 book The Last Battle.

The character appears in several adaptations of the book series, the British television serial The Chronicles of Narnia, portrayed by the English actress Gabrielle Anwar, and The Chronicles of Narnia film series, where Australian actress Laura Brent plays the role. Ramandu's daughter was the subject of literary analysis by various scholars, with her goodness and her marriage and sexual relationship with Caspian receiving attention. The character has been associated with various Christian virtues and figures, including Eve before the fall of man.

I believe that the article meets all of the requirements for a featured article. It has passed a good article review and been copy-edited by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or comments as always. I hope that everyone has a wonderful day and/or night! Aoba47 (talk) 14:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Eric Corbett

I'm curious as to why you introduce Michael Ward as "British scholar", Peter J. Schakel as "British literature Professor" (should be "professor" anyway), and Colin Duriez as "British writer". What has their nationality got to do with their opinions? Also, I very much doubt whether Lewis would describe himself as a British author rather than an English one; Britain and England are not synonymous. Why is it significant that Gabrielle Anwar is an English actress (not a British one I note)? Is Devin Brown a professor of English or merely English? Why is it significant that Laura Brent is Australian?

Removed nationalities. I went off the main Wikipedia page for Lewis' nationality, but I have changed according to your preference. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Academics believed that Lewis characterized Ramandu’s daughter through her goodness." So they no longer believe that?

Should the tone for scholars be in past or present tense? I could not find a Wikipedia policy on this, so I just kept it consistently in the past. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your use of the past tense carries with it the implication that academics no longer believe that, but something else (unspecified) instead. Eric Corbett 06:33, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"... the character's respect towards Aslan defines her goodness." Do you mean "respect for ..."?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"She noted how the character's maternal care for Rilian ..." She noted how, or she noted that?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Overall I found this rather an uncomfortable read, and I think it's going to need quite a bit of polishing before it's ready for promotion. Eric Corbett 00:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Eric Corbett: Thank you for the comments, though I think that calling it "uncomfortable" is very rude and unnecessary. Aoba47 (talk) 05:09, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rude? I think that you need to learn how to accept criticism gracefully. Admittedly though that's a rare skill here on WP, so you can't really be blamed for that. But just to add to my "rudeness", I'll tell you now that if the prose is not improved then I will be opposing this article's promotion. Take that as you will. Eric Corbett 06:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment: I don't think Eric was discourteous here, and gave clear rationales for his objections. Popcornduff (talk) 15:34, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1:@Ian Rose: Can you please archive this? I have no interest in pursing this further. Aoba47 (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Before this gets archived, a quick comment. Yesterday I noticed this nomination, glanced at it, then took a longer look because it's a topic area I have expertise in and have worked in (as has Eric). My take away was that the prose needs work; I had some difficulty parsing in a few areas and didn't read much of it, though it's interesting. I think what Eric means by an uncomfortable read is that our job is always keep our readers in mind and try to engage them from top to bottom. It's a big job, frankly. One I struggle with constantly. Here are a few examples:

Lead: The first sentence is a snake, with too much info crammed in and maybe can be split and tightened. The next sentence presents plot points re the 1952 novel, followed by a sentence with plot points about the 1953 and 1956 books. Better to work from general to specific and mention that she appeared in the 1952, 1953, and 1956 novels (with their titles), then maybe some very general plot points, then that she appeared in adaptations. Personally I'd add the character's film name to the sentences about adaptations (since Lewis didn't give her a name).
Literature: Begins by telling us she doesn't have a name, yet the lead belies this. Also, the text box needs to be moved down a para. Suggest beginning the section with "Introduced in ..." and move the first sentence down a bit. Try separating description, plot points, and analysis; as written they are mixed together and muddle the reader (or, at least, this reader).

I'll make a few edits to demonstrate and revert myself. Victoriaearle (tk) 16:59, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Victoriaearle: Thank you for the comments and for your edits. I just have never heard of an "uncomfortable read" used in this context. I would have taken no major issue with an oppose on the basis of prose, but the phrasing just struck me as very odd and dismissive. However, that is just me, and I do admit that I overreacted when calling him rude so I apologize for that. I am choosing to retire from the FAC process and Wikipedia as a whole so you will not have to worry about having to deal with me in the future. Aoba47 (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi Aoba47 the difficulty here is that a,. it's a character, which, in my view, is the most difficult type of article to write; b., it's childrens lit; c., it's fantasy; and d., it's Lewis and rife with symbolism. Take a look at The dragon (Beowulf), which is the only character I've ever attempted and it was done quickly to avoid a deletion - it's really barely start class. My suggestion would be to choose one of the books, probably The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and begin working there to bring up to FA. You should find references to the character while working through the sources for the book, and then it would easier to tackle this. For examples of book FAs, the best I've yet seen is To Kill a Mockingbird, though the primary author, Moni3, has been gone a long time and it's not being tended. I wrote The Sun Also Rises, which you could also use as an example. Other suggestions are to go over to User:Wadewitz's page, sadly now deceased, and take a look at some of her articles - she contributed greatly to our body of childrens literature FAs, and to user:Yllosubmarine's page, also no longer editing, who has some good examples. Eric Corbett too, has a some good examples of childrens lit FAs to emulate. I'm not around much, but might be interested in copyediting or providing guidance so feel free to leave queries on my page, with the caveat that it sometimes takes me a few days to answer. We all get discouraged; it's part of the process. Anyway, good luck going forward. Victoriaearle (tk) 17:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - As a very quick addendum to Victoriaearle, probably the closest correlation among existing FAs is Jabba the Hutt, also an example of a tangential character who only makes a brief appearance but has become laden with subsequent interpretation. I agree wholeheartedly with VE that articles about individual fictional characters are almost impossible to write at FA level, since unless you're talking about a character like Shylock or Homer Simpson there will almost never be the analysis to sustain an article, so what one ends up doing is just repeating the opinions of the one or two academics who have written about the character in depth, regardless of how wacky and defiant of common sense their opinions are. (To take an obvious example, if Lewis really intended the relationship between Caspian and R.D. to "imply heteronormative sexuality", rather than just be an absolutely generic handsome-prince-meets-beautiful-princess happy ending, I'm a Chinese whore from Mars, but because that's from one of the few people to write at length about the character it needs to be given credence here even though it's obviously a hyper-fringe notion.) ‑ Iridescent 17:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thank you for both of your comments. I have chosen to retire from Wikipedia so I will not be working on any articles in the future. Hope you both have a wonderful weekend. Aoba47 (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Iridescent makes a good point. Taking a look at the source re "heteronormative sexuality" the author actually writes that "Certainly, it seems, this marriage would imply...", i.e, clearly presented at "possibly, maybe", but more importantly it's presented in a much broader context. Also to that point, there are probably better sources on Jstor and Project Muse. Victoriaearle (tk) 18:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      - It is what it is at this point. I would rather just this whole incident behind me, have this archived, and disconnect from Wikipedia as a whole. Aoba47 (talk) 18:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been withdrawn, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:52, 21 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.