Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pinniped/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]
Pinniped (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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- Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) & Sasata (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that after a few months of Sasata and I working on comprehensiveness, prose and sourcing and after a GA by Casliber, it is at least within striking distance of FA. LittleJerry (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural cmt: In future pls use {{subst:FAC}} when initiating a nomination. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Sasata. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Driveby question why isn't this article just named "seal" (disambiguated appropriately)?—indopug (talk) 05:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Pinniped is the preferred term. LittleJerry (talk) 13:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- More specifically, pinnipeds are a set of animals that include walruses, sea lions, and seals. Mattximus (talk) 03:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
SupportComments by Jim well done for tackling this major topic. Looks very comprehensive, but a few comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Although Sasata has fixed a few, there are still plenty of duplinks, I suggest you run the script
- I've now removed all expect one left in for strategic reasons. Sasata (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Check that "However" is always justified
- Clade—link in line 1 of lead
- 1880 monograph.—worth giving title in the text?
- the Phocidae belongs—"belong"
- pelage—what's wrong with "fur"?
- date 18–16 mya—"date to"?
- thick as several inches—jars a bit when metric is given priority throughout the rest of this scientific article
- Otariids rely on the movements of their heads and necks more than its hind-flippers—mixed number
- The pinniped ear is adapted for hearing underwater, where they can hear—subject is singular "ear"
- hearing is somewhat reduced in pinnipeds than in many terrestrial mammals—"compared" to rather than "than"
- Before diving, pinnipeds... —lots of collapsing in this para, vary a bit
- young nurses upside down—"suckle" might be better here
- You have used two different styles to indicate foreign language refs
- You have a mixture of styles for refs with multiple initials (A.B. and A. B.) in at least ref 109
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No further queries, supporting above now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review (& support)! Sasata (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- No further queries, supporting above now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image check - all OK mostly OK (CC, PD-NOAA, PD-age, OTRS, Flickr with no problems). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 issue (and 2 requests):
File:Sea_lion_with_salmon.gif - not OK.(Replaced, new image OK, old image nominated for deletion). (Non-American here) the "Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife" is not part of the Federal US government, is it? PD-USGov doesn't work here (the source website has a clear copyright notice).
- Replaced. LittleJerry (talk)
File:Fish8426_-_Flickr_-_NOAA_Photo_Library.jpg- please add a brief description to the image summary for re-users.
File:Depka.jpg - added English translation for description, please check (is it still alive? I am not sure, what happened in this image).(maybe a better image can be found)
- Not sure what happened. LittleJerry (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a big deal, but then it's probably not the best image to illustrate "human threats to pinnipeds". Suggest to keep looking for possible improvements.
- Added more text to make it more relevant to the section. LittleJerry (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not a big deal, but then it's probably not the best image to illustrate "human threats to pinnipeds". Suggest to keep looking for possible improvements.
- Not sure what happened. LittleJerry (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Infobox collage is OK - all contained images checked. GermanJoe (talk) 08:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Review by Quadell
[edit]Resolved issues
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Also, don't forget my issue with captions, as mentioned in the "Overall" section at the top. – Quadell (talk) 20:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply] |
Support This article fully deserves FA status. The article is incredibly thorough and meticulously referenced, with only high-quality sources used. Each of my spotchecks showed that the source fully backs up the statement without plagiarism. The article has an admirable global perspective, and deals with controversies in ways that avoids NPOV problems. In addition, the nominators have been great to work with and have fixed all problems with impressive quickness. – Quadell (talk) 21:44, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your in depth review and support. LittleJerry (talk) 22:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Cwmhiraeth Like Quadell, I think this an excellent, well-written and researched article. A few points I noticed:
- I have been led to believe that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article in easy-to-understand language to draw readers in. As a summary it seems fine but it uses a lot of jargon with which the general reader may be unfamiliar.
- "While they were historically thought to have descended ..." - It is not clear what "they" refers to here.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The word "carnivoran" may not be familiar to readers. I think their should be an explanation of how it differs from a carnivore.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems a bit odd you using the terms otariids, phocids and walruses in the same sentence.
- I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, otariids and phocids are derivatives of scientific names while walruses are common names. It might have been more logical to use "odobenids" instead of walruses. However you do use these names consistently throughout the article except once in the lead when you use "otarids". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed that. LittleJerry (talk) 23:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't understand. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You mention "fat, or blubber" but you don't explain vibrissae.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "... other than the walrus, all species have fur coats." - This made me laugh, a seal wearing a fur coat.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Pinnipeds are typically polygynous, although the degree of polygyny varies with the species. Land-breeding species tend toward greater polygyny while ice-breeding species are less polygynous." - over use of an unfamiliar technical term.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Male pinniped strategies for reproductive success vary between female defense, territorial defense and lekking." - These concepts are too difficult for the lead without further explanation.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Besides exploitation, pinnipeds also face threats from bycatching, marine pollution, and conflicts with local people." - Ditto.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- " and the bronchus are divided anteriorly." - Shouldn't this be "bronchi"?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "While sea lions and fur seal have historically been considered separate subfamilies ..." - "seal" should be in the plural.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Phocids have thickened mastoids, enlarged entotympanic bones, an everted pelvic bone and a massive ankle bone." - Why the mixed plural and singular body parts?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Monachinae, which consists of the elephant seals, monk seals and lobodontine seals; and Phocinae, which includes the genera Pusa, Phoca, Halichoerus, Histriophoca, Pagophilus, Erignathus and Cystophora." - I am not keen on using vernacular names in one half of this sentence and scientific names in the other.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Be consistent in your use of mya and million years ago.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "... and it may have stayed near shore more often." - More often than what?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Enaliarctos was capable of swimming with both the fore-flippers and hind-flippers, but it may have been more specialized for the former." - This could be better expressed.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "... diet like the modern walrus. Walruses further diversified ..." - Best not to finish one sentence and start the next with the same word.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "the Caspian sea." - Capitalise Caspian Sea.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- To be continued. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "external ear flaps, small tails, rounded heads, flexible necks and limbs modified into flippers." - Tails would be better elsewhere in this list.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "they lack carnassials and they tend to be fewer in number " - The word "they" is used twice here and each time refers to a different subject.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "... the small and large intestines; the large intestine is comparatively short" - Perhaps substitute "the latter" for the second mention of the large intestine.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "the increased volume of the digestive tract serves as an extended storage compartment during submersion." - Storage for what?
- added "for partially digested food". Sasata (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Unlike other marine mammals, pinnipeds have two pairs of flippers on the front and back, the fore-flippers and hind-flippers." - this is confusing.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "They also lack arrector pili so their fur can lay flat as they swim." - "lie flat"?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "In addition, seals can tolerate large amounts of lactic acid." - Perhaps you could explain the significance of this.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "To keep their blood pressure stable, phocids have an elastic aorta that stores some energy of each heartbeat and releases it." - do you mean "and later releases it"?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- To be continued. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:12, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Some species also exploit man-made structures like piers, jetties, buoys and oil platforms." - How do they do this?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Pinnipeds may move further inland and rest in sand dunes or vegetation, and may even climb steep cliffs." - I see there is a reference for this hard to believe statement. Should it really be "low cliffs" or something similar?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk)
- "Travelling seals may use various features of their environment to reach their destination including geomagnetic fields, water and wind currents, the position of the sun and moon and the taste and temperature of the water." - Currents might help them but I guess you mean they use these things to guide them towards their destination.
- I think you should start a new paragraph for the topic of diving.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "The prey often escapes, and seals are often seen with shark-inflicted wounds." - Two "often"s in one sentence.
- Reworded. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Ringed seals build dens underneath fast ice to hide from predators like polar bears." - Explain or link "fast ice".
- Already linked above. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Leopard seals typically target crabeater pups, which form an important of their diet from November to January." - Missing word.
- Fixed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- In the "Foraging and predation" section, is not man a major predator? (I think it should be mentioned here even if dealt with in more detail in the "Human relations" section.)
- "Few islands are favorable for breeding, and those that are particularly crowded." - Unsatisfactory sentence.
- Reworded. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Since the land they breed on is fixed, females of these species return to the same sites year after year." - Could be better expressed.
- Tweaked prose. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Seals that breed on ice or water tend to have little or no sexual dimorphism" - They can't breed "on water".
- Fixed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "The females can usually move freely between territories and males are unable to coerce them, but some species, like the northern fur seal, South American sea lion and Australian sea lion, can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." - The second half of this sentence has no suitable subject.
- The subject is "some species". Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So you think that "Some species can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." is a sensible sentence? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I fail to see what is wrong with it ... could I have a hint? Sasata (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Outside perspective: it feels vaguely odd to say that the entire species contain females (which are a part of the species). Would this rewording work? "... but in some species ... the males can successfully contain females ..." – Quadell (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreeing with Quadell - you could have said "Males of some species can successfully contain females in their territories and prevent them from leaving." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Outside perspective: it feels vaguely odd to say that the entire species contain females (which are a part of the species). Would this rewording work? "... but in some species ... the males can successfully contain females ..." – Quadell (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I fail to see what is wrong with it ... could I have a hint? Sasata (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "When their mothers are away, the pups will fast." - While I think.
- Changed. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Walruses are unique in that mothers nurse their young at sea. Young accompany their mothers after they learn how to dive at five months old. Lactation in this species lasts two years, which suggests that the young need time to learn aquatic nursing." - They obviously nurse the young on land at first. I think the second sentence is a non-sequiter. I would think they need the long period for the young to learn to feed and live independently.
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:16, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Male vocals are deeper than female vocals." Too many "vocal"s in this sentence and paragraph.
- Reworded several. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "These differences are likely important for mothers and pups who need to remain in contact in crowded beaches." - "on crowded beaches" would be better.
- Done. Sasata (talk) 16:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Land-breeding species tend towards individual males mating with a greater number of females a season while males of ice-breeding species mate with less" - Back in the lead section, this sentence needs rewording.
- "Pinnipeds are typically polygynous, although the degree of polygyny varies with the species." - Still in the leaf, this sentence needs to be more accessible.
- "Some species are even serially monogamous." - ditto.
- "Male pinniped strategies for reproductive success vary between defending females, depending territories that attract females and preforming ritual displays or lekking." - ditto.
- I have reworded, trimmed, or otherwise edited these sentences. Sasata (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will stop there as Cryptic C62 has looked in detail at the "Human relations" section. I look forward to supporting the candidacy soon. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Now supporting this candidacy on grounds of prose and comprehensiveness (apart from the Human relations section which I have not studied). Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank-you Cwmhiraeth, for helping to tighten up the article! Sasata (talk) 04:20, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments on Human relations
"There are even stories of people mating with selkies in their human form." Unnecessary. I suggest deleting it. Also, why "even"? Appropriate wording for a kids' book, but not an encyclopedia article.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Seals are also of great importance in the culture of the Inuits, who depend on them for survival." How so? Food, pelts, transportation?
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Sedna story could probably be cut down a bit. At the very least, a consistent tense needs to be adopted; bouncing back and forth between past and present just doesn't work.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the In captivity subsection: do countries other than the US exist?
- It talks about Europe too. Only Europe and the US are discussed in the source. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So then other sources should be investigated. The caption for File:Kobe oji zoo 2009 April 22.jpg states that the photo was taken at a zoo in Japan. Surely there must be some sourcing that can be used to substantiate this, no? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I got confused by this one. I thought you meant what seal facilities where like in other places besides Europe and US. It does mention zoo and aqua in other places that have seals but only gets into detail on the makeup of US and European exhibits. Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So then other sources should be investigated. The caption for File:Kobe oji zoo 2009 April 22.jpg states that the photo was taken at a zoo in Japan. Surely there must be some sourcing that can be used to substantiate this, no? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It talks about Europe too. Only Europe and the US are discussed in the source. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see both "U.S. Navy" and "US naval".
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem was the inconsistent punctuation. I've gone ahead and fixed it. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The Marine Mammal Center in California cares for sick or injured pinnipeds and releases them back into the wild." Why was this arbitrarily tacked onto the end of a paragraph about the U.S. Navy?
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't seem any better placed at the end of a paragraph about exhibits, either. Are there other facilities similar to the Marine Mammal Center? If so, perhaps they could be described together in their own paragraph. If there's nothing notable to say about them, it may be better to just cut this altogether. Either solution would be better than shoving the sentence into unrelated paragraphs. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't seem any better placed at the end of a paragraph about exhibits, either. Are there other facilities similar to the Marine Mammal Center? If so, perhaps they could be described together in their own paragraph. If there's nothing notable to say about them, it may be better to just cut this altogether. Either solution would be better than shoving the sentence into unrelated paragraphs. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"These species, which depend on sea ice habitats in the Northern Hemisphere" It's not clear what "these species" refers to. It could be the three data deficient dudes, or all of the species mentioned in the previous two sentences.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The decline of Steller sea lions in Alaska since the 1970s has been subject to much debate." Debate about what? Could be the severity of the decline, or the cause, or any number of other things.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The scale of seal harvesting decreased substantially after the 1960s." Why?
- Source doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Then other sources need to be investigated. If this phenomenon is notable enough for someone to have written about it, surely it must also be notable enough for some attempt at an explanation. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Added "after the Canadian government reduced the length of the hunting season and implemented measures to protect adult females." Sasata (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Then other sources need to be investigated. If this phenomenon is notable enough for someone to have written about it, surely it must also be notable enough for some attempt at an explanation. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 16:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Source doesn't say. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"However, Weddell seal hunting is prohibited if the animal is over one year of age between September and February" Confusing word order. Should probably say "However, Weddell seal hunting is prohibited between September and February if the animal is over one year of age", unless I have misinterpreted this.
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 04:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Graham Colm (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.