Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pinkham Notch/archive1

Pinkham Notch

Nomination The article is well written, and due to its large number of citations, is verifiable. Sturgeonman 22:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I see that a peer review was attempted 6 days earlier but unfortunetely it's not quite active. I have a few issues:
  • LEAD needs to be expanded. For article this size I would say 2 paragraphs.
  • "Fishing" definetely needs to be expanded or merged.
  • 2 main sources is quite low. Some footnotes such as "Wildcat Mountain" and "USGS" can be combined to become 1 citation used multiple times. See Citing a footnote more than once at Wikipedia:Footnotes. Also your footnotes can be more detailed.
• I wonder if there is an infobox for this sort of thing, hope another user can point you to one if there is. A good thing to include in one (that's missing from this article) is a location of the pass on a map.
• Overall I would say the article feels incomplete (hmm). Here's some possible ideas:
  • mention climate.
  • Who discovered this pass?
  • Was it used before "tourism" or hosted any significant event (Example: battle?)
  • Maybe you could mention fauna/flora?

Good luck - Tutmosis 00:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• Good progress. My support awaits minor issues of language and copyedits. Object.
  • "Pinkham Notch is an excellent example of a glacial "U-shaped" valley..." How do we know that. It should need a citation if being "excellent" is claimed.
  • Inconsistancy in referencing. Sometimes "pp385", sometimes "p385", sometimes "385". Also, sometimes comma separate consecutive pages, and sometimes dashes.
  • Stub sections like "Fishing".
  • Sometimes, for peaks, "As the notch rounds E peak..." is used, while at other places, it is in quotation marks like "D" and "E".
  • "The road was completed in 1861, and tourism exploded." Awkward phrasing.
  • What is "height-of-land"?
  • "Although trail distances seem short, the trip to the summit should not be underestimated..." This sentence passes a value judgement.
  • External links in "Skiing" section need to be converted to ref.
  • Apart from these, I am not sure if I understand the first reference. Is it a map; or a video clip of 7.5 minutes? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

• Response
• Actually, the reference is a map. "Minutes" is a unit of circular measure, a division of the "degree" that is used for latitude. The map covers 7.5 minutes of latitude and longitude.
• In addition, height-of-land is a term refering to the highest point of a mountain pass, from which drainages are divided.
• I removed the "Fishing" section altogether because there is really nothing more to say, and it just reiterates drainages mentioned earlier in the article.
• I also fixed the citation issue with pages, and the inconsistency of peak names.
• As for the previous comment, I addressed several issues: I introduced an environment section that addresses flora and fauna, climate, and their changes with elevation, and also included more about the notch's discovery and early use. However, due to inaccessability, early human use of the notch was limited, and no battles or other significant events occured in the area.
• I also added a map, which assists visualization of the "geography section"
• I need help with the lead section. What should I mention? Sturgeonman 18:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• • I'm gonna go out on a limb here and Conditionally Support until the lead is expanded. Just summarize the most general information: look for the most common facts/points from every section. You can also try the technique of taking jot notes for this article just like if were in a class in college. - Tutmosis 23:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I contributed to the peer review of this article, and the biggest issues (citations and recreation section) have been dealt with. As it stands now this is an excellently written article; however, there are several other possible improvements.
  • As stated before and in peer review, the lead needs at least several more sentences to summarize all other sections. (Environment, History, Recreation)
  • The history section ends in 1958; hasn't anything happened since?

I will support if at least the lead is expanded.Joshdboz 13:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Response

• I fixed the lead section. Let me know how it is. Also, if you see suggestions that I have fixed, strike them out. It's easier for me to see what I need to fix that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sturgeonman (talk • contribs)

I still feel the lead is incomplete. Mention; Jeremy Belknap who discovered it, its part of the White Mountain National Forest, how many peeks it has + the most notable, general elevation of the notch, how long the notch is (is that even in the article?), its accessable by New Hampshire Route 16, it was formed by Laurentide ice sheet + when.

Also whats this mean: "Pinkham Notch was developed later than other areas of New England"?

"is an excellent example of a glacial "U-shaped". "Excellent" pushes pov. Adjectives should be avoided unless a publication uses it and you can source it. - Tutmosis 14:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Support now, great article. - Tutmosis 21:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Support-Thanks for expanding the lead. This has developed into quite a concise and comprehensive article. I would still keep an eye out for more history if possible, otherwise, excellent work. Joshdboz 20:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

• Response-I addressed some of the other issued mentioned in the previous objection:

• Fixed phrasing of Auto Road sentence

• Removed "excellent"; unnecessary, POV problem.
• I disagree about the "underestimation" sentence. It shows that although the trails seem tame, in fact they are not. Thousands of inexperienced hikers ascend the mountain expecting a cakewalk; some get away with only fatigue and having to turn back. Others die. This is an important aspect of hiking the mountain, and is therefore an important part of the article.
• I also converted the links in the skiing section to references. -- Sturgeonman 23:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation 15 is broked and couldn't citation 7 go into 1? Please fix. - Tutmosis 23:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• Got it- Thanks -- Sturgeonman 00:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• Object. Copyedit and prose problems, choppy prose, needs work on "compelling and brilliant". Random example:
  • (Choppy sentences, with no connection, and less than compelling content - long lines are common?) The area also has many opportunities for both alpine and nordic skiing. The bowl of Tuckerman Ravine is famous for its extremely steep backcountry skiing.[39] Long lines are common during the peak spring-skiing season of April and May.
  • On the highest slopes of the west wall of the notch, trees are unable to grow, and an "alpine zone" of alpine-arctic vegetation exists.[19] Vegetation in this zone tends to be lichens, sedges or small, low-lying plants that can resist the constant exposure to the wind. Most plants in this area are perennial; the growing season is far to short to allow for annuals. (Tends to be? Trees are unable to grow should be worked into other definition of an alpine zone. "Far to short?") These are examples only: the prose needs work. Sandy 19:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Object—1a. Needs a good copy-edit throughout. A particular problem is both repetition and laboured attempts to avoid it.
  • In the lead, two sentences in a row start with "Due to ... ".
  • "a number of ecosystems have developed at different elevations throughout the notch, including several of rare or endemic nature." Why not make it less awkward by removing the tired expressions ("of a X nature", "including", "a number of")? Try this: "several rare or endemic ecosystems have developed at different elevations throughout the notch."
  • "but its isolation among high mountains prevented further development for several years. However, the construction of New Hampshire Route 16 has led to increased accessibility and a rise in tourism." A "but" and a "however" in succession. "Increased" and "rise" — when attempts to provide variety in wording are obvious, there's usually a problem. And do you mean "a rise in the number of tourists"?
  • Off onto the first section, and we have "which forms ... which forms".
  • "the northeast United States", but previously "the Eastern United States". The grammar should be consistent.
  • "A number of glacial cirques are found on this side of the notch"—Again, it would be better not to labour for variety; "are found on" sticks out. Just make it "There are a number of ... on this side ...". Who's doing the finding?
  • Idle "alsos" that should be weeded out.

IMO, the nominator should be temporarily banned for making the previous, abusive comment. Tony 06:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Response

I apologize for the obscene comment, and was just joking around. I was a little frustrated, and will try to control myself better in the future. Sorry Sandy, Tony, and anyone else who may have been offended. However, you must realize that its just a word. Take it easy! -- Sturgeonman 19:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)