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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:29, 6 September 2008 [1].

Phan Xich Long

[edit]
Nominator(s): Blnguyen (bananabucket)


I'm nominating this article for featured article because I think it meets the FA criteria. This person is rather obscure and no picture appears to exist. He is a person who started his own religious sect and declared himself Emperor of Vietnam and tried to take power in an uprising fuelled by magic potions. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Overall a very interesting read. The prose could use some touch up work. For example:

  • "Long's historical roots are unclear and obscure." Unclear and obscure are synonyms; pick one, delete the other.
Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while Chapuis records" It took me 10 minutes to figure out Chapuis is the author of a book about the subject. Perhaps state "while the author Chipuis records"
Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMO the quotes on "Coronation" in the heading should be removed. Might wait for a 2nd opinion as I'm not an english expert.
REmoved. I guess the reader can work out that it was a joke/fake coronation. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be consistent. One place in text reads "golden plaque that read" with the caption in quotes, later on a similar statement "dragon's head with the words" with the caption in italics.
Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Potential MOS:DATE violation on the dates. Usually only complete dates should be wikilinked, partial dates (i.e. missing year, month or day) are usually not linked.
Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The linking of dates purely for the purpose of autoformatting is now deprecated, but they should be shown in appropriate order, presumably international (dmy) in this case.--Grahame (talk) 07:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, but I'm getting called away and I haven't finished the article. I'll finish my review later.Dave (talk) 05:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC) OK here's the rest.....[reply]

  • mandarins Ton That Thuyet, reword or de-link mandarin. It's discouraged to have two linked terms next to each other, as someone could believe it is a single linked term.
  • the {{Vietnamese name|Phan|Long}}template appears incorrectly formatted. On my browser renders wiht a {{{3}}}. My apologies for the split review.Dave (talk) 02:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did these two. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Issues Resolved I'm happy now =-) Dave (talk) 06:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Lead

    • I think it be better to remove the "magic" from "magic potions". "Potion" has an intrinsic meaning of mystical.
    • In light of the "jail attack" in the subsequent sentence, could "easily repelled the jail attack" be reworded to "easily repelled the attack on the jail"?
Did these. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early career
    • The section starts off stating that Long's historical roots are unclear, yet the next sentence appears to be an unequivocal statement declaring his year of birth as well as his birth name. The only dispute seems to be regarding his exact place of birth.
    • Might I suggest changing "The genesis of their cooperation may have even originated before mid-1911." to a simpler "They may have started their cooperation before mid-1911."?
    • Was the trio's target Kampot, Cambodia, Kampot Province, or Kampot (district)? It is advised to avoid linking to disambiguations.
Did all these. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The 1909 uprising in Kampot seems to be unconnected to the article. Was there any connection between it and Sanh's movement, or did Sanh and his partners take inspiration from it? Was the trio's decision to stir a movement there due to some factor inciting the 1909 uprising?
Clarified this. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Coronation
    • I think "being" can be removed from "Being located in" without adverse effects.
    • Could "piastres" be linked, or failing that, an equivalent value in USD be provided?
    • "... the old man's remains became the object of veneration, providing further cover for political plotting and fundraising under the pretext of staging funeral rites. As a result, Sanh and his followers staged an impromptu coronation ..." I feel there is a mismatch between the two sentences. How does a coronation relate to funeral rites (even with the latter as a cover)? Is it a standard practice in Vietnam?
Tweaked all of these. Disconnected the uninttended connection. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am uncertain if Sanh's adopted name (the article name) or alias should be at this time bolded. (MOS:BOLD?)
    • Maybe there should be a section or short paragraph describing the climate of Vietnam leading up to the main events in this article. Vasts crowds flocking to pay homage to Long begs one to wonder if the resentment to the French occupation was widespread and how strong was their hold on the country and populace. The revelation (assuming one is not a Vietnam history scholar) that the hier to the monarchy was in exile comes out of the blue here.
I added more information on the various bloodlines of the Nguyen Dynasty and their various activities. I also added some info on various precedents of other self proclaimed deities and mystics who made other nonsensical claims, got thousands of (gullible) supporters and made random rubbish uprisings (which more closely resembled a drunken riot) that were easily crushed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I feel "in addition to a royal seal" is better phrased as "and a royal seal".
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think changing "The 'Đại Minh'" to "The words 'Đại Minh'" would make it clearer that the sentence is explaining the origin of the words rather than its symbology.
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the article should be "the" rather than "those" in "to those Chinese".
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • My thoughts on reading this sentence "the Resident of Kampot was to visit the temple and spot the collection of white robes" (particularly the "was to" bit) was that it was planned (or fated) for the Resident to visit the temple and spot the white robes. This slant strikes me as strange. Maybe it could be changed to use simple past tenses or is it just me?
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Furthermore, what is the significance of white robes? Why should the Resident care over a bunch of white clothing? Is it some standard uniform of anti-colonial rebels among the Vietnamese?
Clarified the same style as the 1909 revolt. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Failed uprising
    • Why was Long in Phan Thiet (a location coming out of the blue in the article)?
None of the sources say anything at all about this, but I guess business or campaigning. The Vietnamese History Journal in Hanoi only has two pages on this fellow. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • How did Long provide his followers with a detailed strategy from his prison cell?
Per above. Probably had sympathisers on the inside. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why did the French anticipate the trouble?
Per above/not explained. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The French continued their crackdown against his followers," Is "his" referring to Long or the other self-proclaimed mystic?
Fixed. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Judging that this took place in the early 20th century, did Long have an impact on later Vietnamese after he had died? Although one is likely not faulted to believe Long's motives were due to ambition, were there other deeper motives? Jappalang (talk) 08:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I made a slight copyedit (of 3 sentences) and I think the article generally looks good as of this version. Your changes and expansion of details helped to connect the events. However, I think I will hold off for a few days to see if others might know of other sources that can flesh out the jailbreak or other events before judging this article. Jappalang (talk) 06:17, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The books don't explicitly discuss causes and effect, but they mentioned a variety of similar movements with the same modus operandi, without saying that they explicitly copied each other. But I have added some bits. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC) }}[reply]
Although the article seems limited in scope, this could be attributed to the limited resources available. Trusting that the sources are extensive, this article is as comprehensive as it can get. As I pointed out earlier, there are some lacking details but most of these have been filled in with general information, which serves to give an overview of the situation (as this is an article focusing on the rebel, and not an article to be focusing on the reasons for anti-French sentiments or history of the revolution). I am led to believe whatever that could be sourced is in the article. The prose in this well-structured article definitely could get some sprucing up from a copyedit expert, but it is definitely readable, never bringing an overwhelming sense of disjointedness or confusion to the reader (well, me). I am supporting this. Jappalang (talk) 01:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Infoboxes are not required by WIAFA or any other guideline. B1nguyen, so he's alphabeticized at P, right? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What percentage of FAs have them?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on this version-

  • Lead: The opening sentence is awkward- does "self-styled" apply to 20th century, Vietnamese, mystic, geomancer, or to all of these? This long string of adjectives is awkward prose. "Geomancer" is only mentioned in this sentence and is never cited. (Fortune-teller is cited later but is less specific, do these citations specify geomancy?)
The book also said this, I added it in the latter part. I removed the self-styled from the earlier parts since anyone can claim to be a magician- it's unverifiable whehter they can actually do anyting. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The opening sentence and the infobox indicate that he was "Self-declared Emperor of Vietnam", but in the Coronation section it is stated with a citation that "Sanh's strategists declared that before the old man had died, he named Sanh as the rightful Emperor of Vietnam." Why is uncited claim that he declared himself emperor in the lead rather than the cited claim that another declared him Emperor?
I've changed it to "claim", as he did style himself as the Emperor. I removed the stronger wording, but as the strategists had already agreed to use the ruse of relgious cover, it's pretty obvious they had other motivations in mind, but I've culled it. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In places throughout the article, the tone tends to be more pejorative than merely descriptive, which can be an NPOV problem. In the lead, there is the accusory "He attempted to exploit religion as a cover for his own political ambitions, having started his own ostensibly religious organisation." There are similar problems in "In the meantime, the old man's remains became the object of veneration, providing further cover for political plotting and fundraising under the pretext of staging funeral rites." "Long took the lead in preparing the explosives, claiming that his experience as a fortuneteller, mystic and natural healer made him an expert". See also WP:MORALIZE.
No, I don't think it is, because he confessed that his real aim was to overthrow the government and take over the country. I've tweaked the latter two sentences. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There were a long series of popular uprisings; this was far from an isolated event. Were there any continuing grievances against the French other than loss of sovereignty? An explanation of why this population was so prone to revolt is missing. The article is written to allege that Long's religion was entirely pretext yet presents the population's motivation to be primarily religious.
Well, as the article points out, there is a hisotry of people in Vietnam claiming to be royal descendants or magical religious figures; these people have often been able to raise large bands of supporters and then tried to take over the country. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A wikilink to Resident (title) would be helpful the first time the title Resident is used
Done, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The white robes- Was the 1909 uprising the first time such robes were used or was there a deeper symbolism? There's also some awkward repetition in the last paragraph of Coronation and the first paragraph of Failed Uprising, with the intervening paragraph out of chronological sequence.
I've rearranged the layout to remove the repetition and fix the chrono. No, the books did not explain the meanings of the costumes. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was possession of white robes considered proof of intent to revolt, or did the French give some other reason for the arrest? How did the French link the robes found >500km from Saigon to this revolt?
Well considering the fact that Long engaged in public coronation ceremonies and circulated material publicly calling for an uprising, I don't think that they would have needed this. None of the books discuss the public legal minutae by the French authorities since it appears that they are concerned with the supernatural religious movements and their phenomena, rather than any threat they posed to the French, as these incidents had a large effect in mobilising peasants but little effect on the French grip on power. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why was Long in Phan Thiet at the time of his arrest, on the far side of Saigon from his base at Chau Doc?
None of the books say anything about it. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A citation is needed for the statement that the revolt was scheduled prior to the arrest of Long- is this known or could the arrest have triggered the developing revolt?
Well I've sourced it, it was the same source for the next sentence. None of the books say when it was scheduled exaclty. I haven't stated or implied that the fact that the bombs were planted the next day was a change by the organisation in response to the arrest nor a deliberate ploy by the French to arrest him as late as possible so that his supporters wouldn't be able to adapt their plans. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there some relationship between Long's name and the modern Long An Province that includes Tân An and Tân Thạnh?
I don't think so. Long is a very common masculine name in Vietnamese, names that mean "dragon", "strength", "mountain" etc and other metaphors of power are very common. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How did this relate to the turnover of Siam's eastern provinces (including Battambang) to French rule in 1906? Again, it feels like part of the story is missing.
None of the books related any of this to any political rumblings in Siam/Cambodia so I can't speculate. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a whole I find that some of the prose is awkward, the tone seems pejorative at times rather than encyclopedic, and there are parts where it seems like part of the background information is missing or the explanation is lacking.--Noren (talk) 07:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is. See number three: "It has images and other media where appropriate". This page is appropriate to have them. It does not. Sorry, but not all articles can become FAs, and ones without pictures are such. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There has to be images where appropriate; if there are no relevent pictures that exist, images aren't appropriate and are thus not a requirement in this case. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Criteria 3 is not asking an FA to be illustrated (ref). Jappalang (talk) 07:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If no pictures are available, then this is not actionable. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is actionable Blnguyen: ask me :D. Magnifier (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, up to now, no one had been able to locate his picture... Image is now inserted in the article, and this should no longer be an opposable issue, right? Jappalang (talk) 00:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, looks like it's fixed. - Mailer Diablo 01:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Giggy

  • "His place of birth is disputed..." - in this sentence one historian is referred to just by surname, the other by full name, and it's slightly awkward. Can you be consistent?
  • "Ham Nghi's Can Vuong movement battled against French ..." - can you not name Ham Nghi again here (repeated just above)?
    • And again in the next few sentences.... don't have to change it every time, but at least sometimes. And is "Ham Nghi" the correct naming convention for him?
  • "Long also claimed descent from the Le Dynasty,..." - no info about his change of name...?
    • Oh, you go back to Sanh next paragraph. In that case, don't use Long here, I think.

Just some minor stuff. I also did some copyediting ([2]) and it's pretty close to being supportable. —Giggy 10:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tweaked I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support with one caveat:

  • The Early career section uses both "Long" and "Sanh" to refer to this person. It should be consistent in this section. I see that the next section has an explanation of when his name changed, and it makes sense to me that at that point the article begins using Long instead of Sanh.

Karanacs (talk) 14:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tweaked. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

comment I have retagged the image as {{PD-US}}, rather than fair use Fasach Nua (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image comments The article does look a bit bear, I dont know enough about the topic to add images myself, but it may be worth considering relevant maps such as Image:Indochine française (1913).jpg, or pictures of the places visited particularly if they feature buildings pre-1916. There should be a reasonable ammount of freely licenced material on commons Fasach Nua (talk) 16:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added a self-created map showing the locations discussed in the article. Jappalang (talk) 13:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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