Jump to content

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/PNC Park

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:22, 13 October 2008 [1].

PNC Park

[edit]
Nominator(s): Blackngold29


I began working on this article in April 2008. It has since grown and received reviews from a number of users. I have attempted not to rush it into any stage of the process, but now feel it is ready for a FA review. I will do my best to address any comments. Thank you. Blackngold29 14:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Comments - Finally, a topic that I'm truly an expert in, having attended 17 Major League Baseball stadiums, including this one. I'm quite pleased to see one of them come here, but think that it does need improvements.

  • The Pirates' attendance in their first two seasons in the stadium is given, but I'd like to see what the figures look like now. A brief check of the ESPN website shows that average attendance is now down to about 20,000 a game. This is probably due to the team's failure; it shouldn't be hard to source that.
  • To our fine image experts: What is our policy on having panoramic pictures that take up the whole screen? Personally, I hope this can be kept because it's a beautiful photo.
  • Lead could use expansion to three paragraphs. First paragraph isn't that big either.
  • "fifth home to the Pittsburgh Pirates," Picky, but perhaps replace to with of.
  • "Built in the style of classic stadiums, such as Fenway Park," Classic is a problem, because reviewers here think of it as POV, even though virtually all baseball fans would call Fenway Park classic (even Yankees fans like me). I'd prefer how this is handled in the body, with the term coming inside quotation marks.
  • Why no mention of the influence provided by Camden Yards and other new ballparks? To me, I see many of the new baseball stadiums as trying to imitate the success of these stadiums, and honestly saw more of them during my PNC visit than I did of Fenway and Wrigley Field (another ballpark I've seen in person).
    • I don't think I saw any sources that mentioned Camden. I'm sure there are many different parks that influended it, but I think Fenway and Wrigley were the most predominant. I'll look for a source, and add it if there's one out there. Blackngold29 20:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The link I provided at the top does discuss Camden a bit and says that it "started the retro trend in major league ballparks". I'm sure that the success of the new stadiums inspired the Pirates owner to build PNC, but it's not a deal-breaker if the sources aren't clear enough to avoid OR. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hyphens for second smallest and third cheapest.
  • Planning and funding: "Discussion about a ballpark took place, however, due to the possibility of the franchise's relocation to a new city;" Why is however used when there is really no contrast with the prior sentence.
  • Couple of money figures need non-breaking spaces.
  • Design and construction: Why is foot linked? I know how long a foot is, and our readers surely do as well.

I will track this and come back with more comments once these are addressed. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One more picky thing that I touched on earlier. All printed publishers of references should be given in italics. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and other newspaper articles should be changed. Not sure if this applies to books, though. I think they're fine as is. I'll support when this is done. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got them all. Book and magazine titles are automaticall italics due to their templates. Blackngold29 03:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Comments - overall, this is a good article, but there are some things to address before I can support.

  • In the history section, the article should say something about the old ballpark. What was wrong with it? Why was a new ballpark needed?
  • "Discussion about a ballpark took place" - I think it needs to say "Discussions ..." (with plural).
  • "team studied the challenges of constructing a new ballpark" is followed by the sites recommended for the stadium. How is site selection a "challenge". What challenges did the team report about in the report?
  • "Kansas City-based HOK Sport designed the ballpark." - that's a very simple sentence, too simple. Something more could be said about their selection as architect, such as when they were selected.
  • "PNC Park was constructed over a 24-month span–three months faster than any other modern major league ballpark" - I believe this is not true. It might have been built quicker than any stadium up until that time. However, ground was broken on Nationals Park on May 4, 2006 [3] and officially opened on March 30, 2008 when the Nationals played the Atlanta Braves [4] which makes the construction quicker than 24 months that it took to build PNC Park.

So far, I have only reviewed the first two parts of the history section, and will look at the rest later. --Aude (talk) 15:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

  • In the Opening and reception section, the article cites Ahjua as saying PNC Park is one of the "top ten places to watch the game". I'm not sure exactly how many MLB baseball teams there are, but it's around 30. So, PNC Park is in the top third of all stadiums. It's a new stadium being compared with Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum and other older stadiums, so not surprising it's ranked highly. But, I don't know how remarkable or notable it is to say it's one of the "top ten places to watch the game."
    • He didn't say "top ten major league park", there are hundreds of minor league stadiums across the US and I'm sure in other countries. I think he was implying top ten stadiums in the country or world, not Major Leagues. Blackngold29 18:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same issue with saying "In 2008, Men's Fitness named the park one of "10 big league parks worth seeing this summer."" - at the very least, this seems redundant with the Ahjua quote, and perhaps the article does not need both.
    • That was added to show that even years after it has been there it is still rated as one of the best in the game. It also re-enforces the notion that it is a widely held view that PNC Park is one of the best. Blackngold29 18:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many of the workers who built the park said that it was the nicest that they have seen" - compared to what else they have seen? I presume that workers on the project are local Pittsburgh construction workers who work on various other types of projects in the Pittsburgh area, which are not as high profile or notable as a stadium project. Thus, I'm not sure the significance of including that statement.
    • The article its cited to talks of one worker who has been involved in construction since Mellon Arena in the early 1960s. 23 different unions were involved and I doubt all workers were from Pittsburgh. I could take it out if you really feel it shouldn't be there, but I get the vibe that most workers were not local. Blackngold29 18:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Other events section, the article mentions the Pittsburgh Panthers. It's not obvious that this is a college team. Perhaps the two sentences can be reworded, to start off saying, "The first collegiate game at PNC Park was played on May 6, 2003, between the Pittsburgh Panthers and the Duquesne Dukes.." Then provide more of the details.
  • Images - I know there are reasons why you can't have a picture of a statue, but the "PNC Park at night" photo doesn't really belong in the "Statues" section. It could go in a different section. The PNC Park at night picture is forced at 200px, which overrides user preferences. Please don't force the pixel sizes. Otherwise, the photos work well with the article, and the sandwich looks good. :)

--Aude (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I'm satisfied with your explanation for including the various quotes in the "Opening and reception" section. I believe the article is factually accurate and comprehensive, with use of several books along with various news and other sources, and the sources are all reliable. --Aude (talk) 18:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image comments - There are some great images there, but I cant see Image:RobertoClementeStatueatPNCPark.jpg or Image:NLC-PIT-PNC.PNG meeting WP:NFCC#8 or the article meeting featured article criteria 3 Fasach Nua (talk) 12:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry, but I'm not to learned in the picture area. Are you saying that they should be re-sized or eliminated? I think the Roberto one is a good picture, but I could understand removing it. The logo on the other hand, being that it is the building's official logo, should probably stay. I mean all sports teams have logos in their articles—Calgary Flames (an FA) has two. Blackngold29 17:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think that the logo is essential to understanding, if you look at WP:LOGO it discusses band logos, and I believe that stadia logos falls into the same category. A stadium can be uniquely identified visually with a picture of the stadium, most stadia don’t have logos, and the articles are fine without them. The m:mission is to create a free encyclopaedia, and this non-free material is not significant and it’s use is contrary to the mission of WP Fasach Nua (talk) 12:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the logo. In addition, I have replaced the Roberto Clemente Statue picture with a free image of the Roberto Clemente Bridge with the Park in the background. I moved their locations so the Bridge would be near the prose that discusses it. With that, I believe all pictures are from the Commons. Blackngold29 14:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article meets criteria 3 in full Fasach Nua (talk) 14:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - All my comments have been addressed, and I'm satisfied that the questioned sources are reliable enough for what they're citing (they seem similar to using Aramark to reference concession info). Looks like it meets FA criteria to me, though I did leave a couple more notes for you. Consider them opportunities to apply some extra polish. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Too many errors, including a missing verb in the lead; maybe Giants2008 will run through one more time. See my edit summaries and inline queries. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:41, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All inline queries have been taken care of. I'll run through again. I feel that intro's are the weakest part of my writing and it has been expanded since the FA review began, so that may explain some of the shortcomings. Blackngold29 03:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm stunned that I missed that. Bad job by me. I have virtually no experience with thorough copy-editing, but I'll take a shot at it later today. Please monitor my changes carefully so I don't mess anything up. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, my first copy-editing pass, covering the lead and most of History, is done. I'll do more tomorrow, assuming that the first batch of edits is up to par. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the changes look great. I've been working on it for so long, I like to see how other people would write things. Yeah, definately keep going. Blackngold29 23:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My humble attempt to provide a copy-edit has concluded. Not to brag, but I improved it quite a bit. I did run into a couple little issues in Other events, which I'll post here.
You have definatley improved the article. Thanks a lot for your work! Blackngold29 20:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the game, late Pirate Roberto Clemente received the Commissioner's Historic Acheivement Award;". He couldn't have received the award, because he had been dead for 24 years. Perhaps change it to say he was honored with the award.
  • "A goal of the drill was to test the response of 49 western Pennsylvania emergency response agencies." Don't like the double response here. The source said it tested communication, but I didn't want to take such direct wording from it. Giants2008 (17-14) 19:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, I had difficulty with wording in that section too. It now read, "...test the response of 49 western Pennsylvania emergency agencies." Which I think is suffic in getting the point across. Blackngold29 20:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Giggy. Only some very minor niggles.

  • "which is considered to be the "leading stadium design firm in the [United States],"" - considered by whom?
    • The article doesn't really make it clear. From my understanding, they appear to appear to be unparalelled in their field. The only thing I could think to add would be "...acording to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette." Would that be alright? Blackngold29 03:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which relayed building plans 24 hours per day" - when you say relayed I expected a target (eg. "relayed plans from X to Y") or something like that - am I misreading?
  • "Fans seated in the section are allowed "unlimited hotdogs, hamburgers, nachos, salads, popcorn, peanuts, ice cream and soda" for an entire game" - what's the catch!? If it costs more to get a ticket in that section you should probably say so
    • There is no catch that I can see, I don't believe prices were raised anymore in that section than others. It does sound almost too good to be true, but when your trying to attract people to watch the Pirates... Blackngold29 03:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could a caption be added for the infobox image?

Giggy (talk) 01:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/PNC_Park&oldid=1136096190"