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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:19, 14 January 2009 [1].

Orval Grove

[edit]
Nominator(s): Wizardman

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel that after writing it, it meets the appropriate criteria. I modeled this after my other FA, Art Houtteman, and everything appears to be in order. Wizardman 22:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Maralia Yay baseball! A few quick comments:

  • The black border (background?) around the lead image is uneven, wider on the left than on the right. Could the black be cropped out?
    • Unfortunately, I cannot, as it is an unfree image, and as such I cannot mess with it since I'm not the copyright holder. If it was free I would gladly do it. I'll handle the other two issues shortly. Wizardman 01:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've never heard that we can't crop a nonfree image. Seems nonsensical; aren't we in fact encouraged to use the smallest portion of a nonfree image necessary? Maralia (talk) 02:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I did some sleuthing, and according to my findings, the photograph is actually PD. Ergo, I'll crop it shortly. To answer your question, I assumed it was a derivative work. I'm sure I could ask 10 fair use people and they'd be split on the matter. Wizardman 03:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The periodical names (The Sporting News, The New York Times) in your citations aren't getting italicized. My guess is that you have them in the publisher= field instead of work=.
    • Done.
  • Also in the references, almost all of the dates are nicely formatted, but there are a handful of ISO-formatted dates (refs 14, 16, 18, 22, 38, 42).
    • Done. I didn't realize that the iso-formatted dates didn't work anymore until just now. Now I know :)

I'll be back shortly to do a more thorough review (must get my son off to bed first). Maralia (talk) 01:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments through 'Transition to the majors' section:

  1. "He had a career year in 1943" - 'career year' probably warrants explanation
  2. "As a freshman, he was a member of the varsity team, the first freshman in school history to do so." - He became the first freshman member of the varsity team in school history.
  3. "until management began to replace youth with veterans" - replace youths with veterans
  4. "At the 1940 Chicago White Sox season began, Grove became" - As the 1940
  5. "Although Grove was an official part of the team as the 1940 season began." - this is a sentence fragment
  6. "The Sox did plan to use three rookie pitchers during the final week of May, including Grove, as the result of having three doubleheaders that week." - The Sox did plan to use three rookie pitchers, including Grove, during
  7. "he spent most of the nest season in Oklahoma City." - next season
  8. "He finished the season at Oklahoma City with 17 wins and seven losses" - here we break the <10 rule for consistency within the sentence: 17 wins and 7 losses
    Done with above points. Wizardman 21:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More as I get more time. Maralia (talk) 02:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:00, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Oppose

  • Upon signing with the team should be followed by the year.
  • Link Minor League Baseball, Doubleheader (baseball)
  • I think mentioning Hall of Fame votes in the lead of this article is misleading. Leave that fact for the main body.
  • Explain why his high school career was only three years if he eventually graduated, but began as a Freshman.
    • First three are done. For the fourth, I mention in the article that he went for three years, then later came back and finished his senior year of high school. I'll make it more clear in the article. Wizardman 03:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • great deal of possibility s/b much potential
  • official part of the team? Do you mean 25-man roster or 40 man roster?
  • typo - nest season
  • Shreveport Sports of what league?
  • he was back on par with the other White Sox pitchers s/b his playing ability was back on par with that of the other White Sox pitchers
  • Another issue came up for Grove in 1943, the issue being World War II. Say something like In 1943, Grove also had to deal with issues related to World War II.
  • Grove took advantage of now being in Chicago's starting rotation, winning nine consecutive decisions to start his season, and not losing a game until a match against the Yankees which he lost as the result of a balk. s/b Grove took advantage of now being in Chicago's starting rotation by winning nine consecutive decisions to start his season and by not losing a game until a match against the Yankees, which he lost as the result of a balk.
  • At the time, Orval Grove became the second member of the White Sox to win nine consecutive decisions to start the season and the third in White Sox history, the first being Lefty Williams in 1917 and the most recent being LaMarr Hoyt in 1982. is confusing
  • Change career-highs to career-bests
  • Grove started the 1944 Chicago White Sox season was an interesting honor s/b Grove started the 1944 Chicago White Sox season with an interesting honor
  • Mention the accident and its remifications in the 1941 section
  • instead of Closing pitcher say closer
  • top outing s/b best outing.
That is all for now. I will finish the article later.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing
  • Done with the exception of the 19 starts in 1947. I cannot seem to find anything sourced about it. No mention of an injury or minor league stint, so my guess is he simply didn't start every game and became a spot starter (the Sox used 11 starting pitchers in 1947 four or more times, so it could've been that the squad was just bad).
        • I think you should mention the number of appearances for seaons in the late career section. He was not exclusively a starter and in order to give a complete biographical description of this part of his career just talaking about games started is leaving a lot of information out.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Comments - I should oppose on principle for writing a quality article about the wrong Grove, but I'm in a good mood because of the holidays, so I'll spare you. :-) Seriously, it is a good article. I saw a few things that need tweaking as I read it, but overall I'm quite impressed.

  • "After retirement, he worked with his uncle in a trucking business in Chicago while continuing to pitch baseball at the semi-pro level." I think the word baseball can be removed, or it can be changed to "play baseball". Either of those would be a slight improvement on the current wording.
  • Minor league career: There are two "in order to" uses in the first paragraph. The word-smiths of FAC consider this wordy, and prefer just "to".
  • St. Paul Saints links to the modern-day team, not whatever club existed back then.
    • The article did cover the old team after all. I re-added a link to it while I was copy-editing.
  • Transition to the majors: "he pitched a complete game that lasted twelve innings, winning the game 1–0 against hall of famer Dizzy Dean." Capitalize Hall of Fame?
  • Texas League link is repeating one from the minor league section.
  • "In October, Grove was hurt in an auto accident in Missouri, and injured his other knee as a result.." Double periods.
  • Career years: "At the time, Grove became the second member of the White Sox to win nine consecutive decisions to start the (change to "a") season at the time and the third in White Sox history." I'm confused by the sentence, as it seems to contradict itself. Just guessing from what the next sentence says, but is it supposed to be "and one of three in White Sox history."?
  • Remove comma after 1944 Chicago White Sox season?
  • In the same paragraph as the last comment, there's some en dash code that needs fixing.
  • "Grove also managed to shut out the Yankees on May 18, the first time the Yankees had done so in 1944." I'm not sure that the flow is as good as can be. A small adjustment to the end will probably be good enough to work.
  • One thing that's bothering me as I read this is the unpiped links to xxxx Chicago White Sox season throughout. I can see having one link like that to avoid confusion, but most of them can just be xxxx season without losing anything. That would make it a little smoother for readers.

It's difficult for me to keep up with the reviews I currently have, but I'll come back to read the rest ASAP. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For someone with my review backlog, ASAP means about six days. :-) Anyway, I'm back to finish my review. There's quite a bit left to do, but I want to get it all out there at once due to the amount of active reviews I have.
  • The auto accident referred to in 1945 was already mentioned in 1941. I think a change from "an auto accident" to "the auto accident" would help tie those sections together.
  • "after becoming the only player who remained holding out." Needs fixing.
  • Link Ed Lopat
  • "and as a result the coaching planned..." Also needs fixing.
  • Later career: "The 1948 season faced difficult decisions..."
  • "the White Sox beat the Chicago Cubs 1–0, giving Grove a complete game shutout." The second clause doesn't come as a result of the first; just because the Sox won in a shutout doesn't mean that it was a complete game.
  • "which prompted concern for Indians..."
  • "which was declared by some as 'the best any Coast League club ever had'." Who is some? An attribution would be nice here.
  • "en route to a 17 win, 20 loss season." Hyphens?
I also want to see the Tripod source removed or proved acceptable. If it stays, it needs a publisher added to the citation. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. Sorry if I seem like I'm rushing, just trying to get done what I can before the first, since arbcom will then take up all my time. The Tripod thing's troubling me since I'm struggling to find a source for that info but can't really remove it since it a nice detailed chunk of minor league info. The rest I will handle within a couple days. Wizardman 03:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done with the exception of the tripod source issue. I will definitely work my ass off on this particular one tomorrow, I think it's bugging me more than the reviewers :) Wizardman 23:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. That Will Farrell messing me up... :P Wizardman 04:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative oppose—Reluctant withdrawal of oppose. See my comments below. Tony (talk) 03:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)I found plenty of minor glitches at the opening. It needs someone new to it to run through the prose carefully. These are random examples only:[reply]

  • "He had a career year in 1943, finishing the season with career bests in ERA, wins, and complete games, and in 1944 he made his only All-Star appearance." Last "he" could be removed (ellipsis); there's lots of "he" in the vicinity.
    • I did something altogether different: "Grove had a career year in 1943, finishing the season with career bests in ERA, wins, and complete games; in 1944, he made his only All-Star appearance." The proposed fix didn't do anything to combat the "he" overload, and the two seasons felt forced together. I think the semi-colon improves it further.
  • "By eighth grade, Grove developed a fondness for baseball, and began pitching for the Proviso East High School baseball team." Remove the comma?
    • Yes.
  • "Grove lost only two games, pitched a no-hitter, and pitched a couple of one-hitters." You couldn't make it: "Grove lost only two games, and pitched a no-hitter and a couple of one-hitters."? But it's still a little stumpy—the "lost only two games" is more comfortably embedded in the longer period, but the pitching references look like single incidents within games. Perhaps I'm too much the non-expert here.
    • A no-hitter happens when a pitcher doesn't allow a hit during a game; it's a rare feat. The one thing I would change is to say how many one-hitters he had; I'd guess two, but can't do anything without having access to the source. Fixed it as suggested otherwise.
  • Pity there's no sense of the magnitude of a $2,500 contract in 1937. Sounds like the cost of one electronics item for the sitting room.
    • I'll look for it later, but this sounds like it will be hard to find. Wizardman would probably have better luck finding 1937 salaries than me.
      • Note:Lou Gehrig had the highest salary in 1937, at $36,000.[2] so 2500's nice, but maybe it's not as huge as I thought. Wizardman
  • Can you check for "he" throughout? "He played with the Steers until management began to replace youths with veterans due to the team's struggles, and as a result he was moved to the Longview Cannibals." Or "... struggles; as a result, he was ...".
    • Chose the latter option. And yes, I will be searching for "he" later.
  • Can one purchase a contract?
    • Actually, baseball teams do. This is correct.
  • "in order to"—spot the two redundant words. But there's another problem: four "to"s. And the last phrase is unnecessary: "As his first minor league season drew to a close, Grove planned to return to Proviso High School to complete his education when the season ended." Try: "As his first minor league season drew to a close, Grove planned his return to Proviso High School to complete his education." Tony (talk) 08:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Did "Grove planned on returning to Proviso High School to complete his education." Didn't like the double "his" in the proposed fix, especially considering the large number of "he"s scattered throughout. Didn't find the "in order to", but I'll get it later during my full run-through, assuming that it's still there. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS Your hope that a reader might realise that the blue "1940" and "1949" are in fact links to years in baseball is a long-shot; they look like those silly solitary year links that go nowhere relevant. Why not arrange one reference to Years-in-baseball in the main text instead, where it's a proper service to readers, not a guessing game (see MOSLINK). Please see my comments below in Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Sunderland_A.F.C.. Tony (talk) 08:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I got rid of the infobox links and will look for a spot to park a year-in-baseball link in the body. A full cleanup job is coming from me later. I did review this earlier, but I saw some good copy-editing opportunities while searching for these fixes. For now, I have a bunch of reviews to do and football on TV, so I'm stopping here. Thanks for this review and all the others you do. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review - Soooo. I suppose the only way for someone to verify all of these wild speculations about File:Orval Grove.jpg being in the PD is to actually go to the George Burke Archives (wherever those might be)? :) Is there any citation we could provide readers for any of this information? Pretty please? Awadewit (talk) 22:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am uncertain that the license for this picture is correct. According to Wikipedia:Public domain#Published works, "Even if a work was published in the U.S. between 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice, there would need to be proof to that effect. The proof must contain a valid resource justifying the claim in order for the U.S. copyright office to accept it." Where is the proof that this picture was published? Note that George Burke takes pictures of baseball players, but supposedly never sold them to the public. He kept them in his collection, selling copies to the players themselves;[3] hence, his photos were accorded as collectibles.[4][5] George Brace, who was mentored by Burke, similarly practiced the same thing (personal collection).[6] Some of Burke's work could be considered "published"; he sold stamps to players who used them to post replies to fans.[7] However, the key here is to prove that the photo of Orval Grove was published in the media or sold as baseball cards to the public, and that no copyright was registered for that photo. Jappalang (talk) 00:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was asserted the image was PD upon asking User:Zscout370 about it, which was confirmed by another user whose name escapes me. If it's determined to actually not be PD, i'll just rv and put the fair use tag and rationale back in. Wizardman 04:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would suggest that the image be reverted back for "Fair use" at this moment, and only declared as PD when proof is found. For fair use, the single image has a case for identification of a deceased person. Jappalang (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been working on the FUR: A couple of things: 1) We need more information on the source, that would allow readers to track down the image, if they so desired. 2) WP:NFC requires that non-free images have been published or publicly displayed outside Wikipedia. We need some evidence of that. Awadewit (talk) 04:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: An interesting, well-researched and mostly well-written article. In addition to Tony's comments could you check all the occurrences of "also", especially the very tired "not only...but also" construct. Often "also" is redundant and worse, for me at least, slows down the reading because it refers back to previous lines. Also, "nixed" is not in my Oxford English Dictionary—the nearest are "nix" and "nixie", male and female water elves :-) Graham Colm Talk 16:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment to TonyTheTiger and Giants: You both appear to disagree with each other on the linking issue regarding x in baseball and the like. Can't really compromise on this one, seeing as either it is or isn't in. Wizardman 18:02, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't really care either way, though I personally prefer the MLB links. Year in baseball links would be fine as well. While I'm here, I left an inline message regarding the "it was discovered" that he had an injury. If this can't be found due to your computer, don't worry about it too much. I'm also leaving responses above to the other Tony. Have to cut a new ArbCom member with a busted computer a break once in a while, right? :-) Giants2008 (17-14) 18:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just finished a full copy-edit. Please check my work, as I don't usually copy-edit articles I review. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, article reads a lot better now. I'll go through tonight and hopefully satisfy the two tony's final issues. (except for the discovery issue, which will have to wait until I can access pdf files again.) Wizardman 16:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the "not only...but" sentence. While I was copy-editing this, I found a few more things, which I want to bring to your attention.
  • The last sentence in Later career, on the end of his career, feels like a run-on. Perhaps breaking it up before "as he said" would solve the problem.
  • The given publishers for notes 11 and 14 are Section Two and Sports, respectively. Are these the names of newspapers, or are they sections of unnamed newspapers?
  • Do a "he" check before pinging Tony1, since that was his major concern. I changed a few of them, but there are still quite a few. Giants2008 (17-14) 04:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved issues. Jappalang (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments as follows:

Early life
  • "West Mineral, Kansas on August 29, 1919"
Should there not be a comma after "Kansas"?
Minor league career
  • "due to the team's struggles"
Would "due to the team's struggling form" be better?
  • "After the 1939 season began"
Should this not be "After the 1939 season had begun"?
  • "Grove walked three men in a row—which allowed a run to score—and received credit for the loss, despite that fact that he did not allow a hit during his time on the mound."
Not being a fan of baseball, but having an crude understanding of the basics of the game, I am puzzled by this sentence. Basically Grove foul-balled 12 times to let 3 men onto the bases, thus earning the Oilers one run, but why "credit for the loss"? Should it not be "blame for the loss", and should he not be blamed if he foul-balled that many times (despite that no opponent had hit any of his pitches)? Or is my interpretation totally wrong?
Reworded, hopefully this is better.
Career years
  • Would classification as 3A mean that he was an only son?
I'm not sure, actually. 3A means "Whose deferment is advisable because his child(ren), parent(s), grandparent(s), brother(s), or sister(s) is dependent upon him for support." (he was not married yet). This implies that he was taking care of his parents and/or grandparents with the money he made as a ballplayer, which would be my best guess. I don't have a source to prove that though. He had at least one brother (per having a nephew), so he's not an only child.
Okay, not an actionable issue—nicely fulfilled my curiosity though. Jappalang (talk) 01:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On July 8, 1943, Grove almost made baseball history."
Would that have been the first time a Major League no-hitter was achievied if Jordan did not hit the ball? If so, that should be noted. Otherwise, I do not see how that was baseball history unless it was the first White Sox no-hitter or a no-hitter was so rare no one did it until many years later.
No-hitters are rare, and it does give a baseball pitcher a certain kind of greatness if they are able to throw one. "History" is probably too strong of a word, I'll try and reword it.
  • "$310 in damages from the auto accident"
Is it "from the" or "for the"?
I think it's from the. Maybe I should change it to "$310 in damages stemming from the auto accident"?
I think it should be "for" since he was "awarded"; it would be "from" if he "received", right? Perhaps, someone else can weigh in on this? Jappalang (talk) 01:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Later career
  • "and refused to report, instead pitching at the semi-pro level."
Is it supposed to be "and refused to report, choosing instead to pitch at the semi-pro level."
  • "narrowly missed a perfect game when a runner got on base with, coincidentally, two outs in the bottom of the ninth inning."
Again, as one not in full tune with baseball, why is this "coincidentally"?
Coincidental because that is the same thing that happened to Orval (that sentence discusses his nephew, Wayne Grove)
Do you meant that Wayne did not get a no-hitter? That is, he was pitching what would have been a no-hitter until the last batsman hit (like what happened in Grove-Jordan)? The current sentence reads to me as if no one hit Wayne's pitches, and a runner (due to foul balls) stole the base during Wayne's pitches. That does not seem to mirror Grove-Jordan, or is the coincidence supposed to be Wayne's missing a perfect game at the same instance in the match as Grove's miss of a no-hitter? Jappalang (talk) 01:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The latter. The O. Grove-Gordon situation mirrored the W. Grove situation. Only difference was it was a perfect game for Wayne. I'll take it out though since coincidence is probably a judgment call for the reader.
Later life
  • "receiving five votes ... and seven votes in ..."
I think the words "votes" here are redundant, considering that the preceding clause has established that he got a few votes.
Miscellanous
That was what I thought, but Tony1 above disagrees. Maybe I'm overdoing it though. (other issues are now done) Wizardman 02:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tony1 saw a lot of "he"s, but I believe he was not asking all of them to be converted to "Grove"s. Personally, it has been overdone to resolve his concern (Giants2008's and Henry8787's copyedits have removed much of the excessive pronouns; in my opinion, only a few more needed to be tweaked after their work). I think a good approximate guide for when to remind the reader of the subject is about every third mention of the subject, or when it is possible to mix up who the pronoun is referring to (such as cases when another man is mentioned just after Grove) on reading the sentence. Jappalang (talk) 03:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A splendid read on the whole for a baseball-ignorant me. Just some niggles above (most are likely not issues on explanation). Jappalang (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finished your concerns, except for those where I left comments. Wizardman
This article qualifies for FA, once the sourcing for Sacremento Salons is settled. Jappalang (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(To do: finish Tony1's remaining issues (double-check "he" usage and the $250 salary) and the source issue on the Sacramento Solons) Wizardman
SOURCE HAS BEEN REPLACED (yes, :) I think it deserves all caps) Wizardman 03:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have you pinged Tony to revisit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do that now. If he does have any outstanding issues they should be minor ones to fix. Wizardman 04:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - A lot of work was needed here, but the article has risen to FA standards as a result of that work. Well-researched and well-written. Disclaimer: I copy-edited this, as I stated above. Giants2008 (17-14) 03:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have withdrawn my tentative oppose above, but reluctantly. This nomination was way premature, and the FAC page far too long. Please do not submit another nomination in such a bad state. Why do I still see things like "Additionally,"? Just remove it. It's OK overall. Tony (talk) 03:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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