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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 16:29, 24 May 2014 [1].


Orel Hershiser's scoreless innings streak

[edit]
Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:52, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notified WP:MLB, WP:DODGERS, WP:SOCAL, WP:Los Angeles--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notified prior FAC discussants: Indrian, Jimfbleak, Sportsguy17 (also GA reviewer), Crisco 1492, Y2kcrazyjoker4 (also PR discussant) and Beerest 2--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:22, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notified PR discussant Figureskatingfan--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notified DYK reviewer Bloom6132--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the most important streaks/records in baseball/sports history. I have addressed the concerns of the prior FAC (both during the prior FAC and after it) and taken the article through a PR.TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:52, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note that this article has had a page move, which has fooled the tool that presents prior discussions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - one of my major concerns from the previous FAC was the "play-by-play tables". I understand what they are because I am familiar with baseball, but your typical reader may not understand what they are (e.g. there's no legend to what the abbreviations mean). Furthermore, there is no context given to explain why these tables are notable - are these particular innings significant because they were close calls or because of the people Hershiser had to face? What was the criteria used to select these innings versus others? To be honest, I think they all need to be removed. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • As with anything on WP, they were included because they were what the secondary sources were talking about. During the streak, the secondary sources have discussed certain innings as being interesting for one reason or another. I am not sure if there is any one reason why they have all been discussed in the media, but these are the innnings that have been discussed. I summarized them in table format because that is what helps me understand what happened. I was thinking that by providing tables baseball fans could have an easy glance at the interesting innings, while the prose presents similar content for the non-baseball fan.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even so, simply detailing the innings in question in tables without any explanation is rather jarring. I think prose would be perfectly suitable way to highlight them. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 01:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The other tables are great. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:55, 28 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry for the late comment, but the legend table seems to make for way too many tables (you've got a game-by-game table, a legend, an individual game box score, and an inning play-by-play). There is still no explanation in the article as to what the inning summary tables are, nor is there any context for their inclusion. I don't think the basic Wikipedia reader, even with a legend, will be able to understand what the tables are conveying. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 14:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately, since nothing has been done to contextualize these "trouble inning play-by-play" tables for casual readers, I'm going to have to oppose. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:13, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've seen the legend, and as I mentioned, its addition only seems to overwhelm the article more with tables. If you want a table to be collapsed by default, you should add "collapsible collapsed" as a parameter of a table's class (next to "wikitable"). Still, the point I've been trying to make is that there is no prose in the article that explains what these tables are for or why these innings are being detailed over others. You've told me the reason here, but there's nothing in the article that explains it for casual readers. You need to account for readers having no familiarity with Orel Hershiser, the concept of consecutive scoreless innings, or baseball at all. For that reason, I don't see why the play-by-play tables are needed when prose could suffice. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 15:06, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • In terms of "why these innings are being detailed over others", it is because these are the innings described in the reliable sources. I'll try collapsing.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • We don't explain why we include these types of details. Since this is the only baseball article of its type, I will refer to another sport. In 2012 Alabama Crimson Tide football team we don't explain to the reader that we detail in a scoring summary dropdown each play that resulted in a score. It is just obvious that every play that resulted in a score is worth having in an article. Here for a shutout, it is when runners are in scoring position and don't score that is interesting. There is nowhere in the prose where we need to tell the reader we are detailing all such plays, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:22, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • The purpose and notability of a scoring summary for any sports game is inherently obvious. It is a staple of the game's box score, and it summarizes the exact plays of a game you would expect there to be details for. However, the same cannot be said for an excerpt of the baseball game's play-by-play where no scoring took place. Unless you can conceive a way to contextualize the tables for casual readers, I cannot support any promotion of this article. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:12, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I do not know what you mean by contextualize the tables for the readers. The tables are contextualized by the prose because they are the same innings that we describe in the prose for each game. In an article about a shutout streak, which articles would you expect to receive extra close attention. In my mind, it would be the innings that all the secondary sources talk about. The innings that have been chosen for the tables are no more unusual than the innings that have been chosen for the prose. Why do you only want me to explain why I detail them in the tables, but feel there is no controversy about why I have detailed them in the prose? Are you asking for something like a change in the introduction that defines the article as a summary of his scoreless streak that describes how he continued the streak by averting each close call. I guess I could do that, but you don't seem to find the prose in need of contextualization. You seem to accept the prose that details the close calls, but question the tables which gives an alternate presentation of the same content. If I were to add a sentence to the lead saying that this is an article that presents the streak by detailing all high risk scoring situations would that be sufficient. I have added During the streak, he averted numerous high risk scoring situations, which are described below both in common language and official baseball play-by-play scoring language along with the three innings that defined the beginning, end and record-breaking inning of the streak. to the WP:LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:50, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I guess I did not closely scrutinize each table with the surrounding text enough, because I initially thought the innings being detailed in the tables had not been covered in the prose. I still think they are mostly redundant, but if you are committed to keeping them, I think it would at least benefit the article to modify the contents of the table to be more readable and less of a copy/paste job from Baseball-Reference. For example, the syntax used to describe which bases are occupied is not very obvious or commonly seen. The "result of play" column only accounts for outs or runs, when there are many other outcomes that occur. A few tweaks to these items would go a long way. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think we should be shooting for "obvious or commonly seen" in terms of Baseball scorekeeping language. There are ways to combine bases occupied with result of play to show how runners advance. There are also varying levels of detail to a play by play. E.g., see a game from last night. You could have pitch-by-pitch detail. There are a wide variety of levels of detail, each right in its own respect. Are there types of details that you think are instrumental that are not currently included in the level of detail being used. I am not sure what direction you want me to take the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think you're overcomplicating what I'm asking. The runners on base syntax doesn't need to be a needlessly obtuse --3, 12-, or -2-, it should be represented as "1st, 2nd, and/or 3rd". No casual reader with limited familiarity with baseball will have any idea what the current syntax means, even with a legend. The "result of play" column also needs to account for more than just an out or run – batters reaching base is an outcome that is completely ignored. If you don't agree with adding this to the relevant plays, then remove the column (as the play description column also covers this). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 17:34, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • I have fixed the baserunner column. I think the "result of play" column serves to eliminate confusion of play descriptions like "Ground out: P-SS/Forceout at 2B", which some readers might think means tow outs were recorded. Thus, I don't agree that it is redundant with the play description column.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I would abbreviate the baserunners as either "1st/1B, 2nd/2B, or 3rd/3B" for concision. However, the "result of play" column doesn't need to be abbreviated as "O" and "R". And I must continue to stress how it is currently lacking. It should have a value for every batter (e.g. "out", "run(s)", and/or "batter reached base"). Otherwise, it doesn't serve much use in telling the reader what the result of the play was. I would also remove the pitcher column since that is always Hershiser, as well as the opposing team column (you can always indicate the opposing team in the header of the "opposing hitter" column). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 03:18, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Y2kcrazyjoker4, I have now collapsed all the play-by-plays, which I suppose is standard for excerpted play-by-plays (such as the very common scoring summaries in football). Now, what do I do with the legend?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Good job on an entry that covers an important piece of baseball history. EricEnfermero HOWDY! 05:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A small note regarding hits per at bats: 0/9 is the usual convention I am aware of; I have never seen 0-9 used. I agree though that spelling it out would be the best approach. isaacl (talk) 16:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by reference and prose comments from Go Phightins!

Note -- As this has been open six weeks or so with no support for promotion, I'm very close to archiving it, but am also a bit loathe to do so when someone else is about to comment, the result of which may influence another reviewer's final opinion. Christine, if you can go through it shortly, I'll give you the time to do it. Also I note that there's been discussion on sources but no image license check that I could see, so we'll need that too. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:00, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Figureskatingfan was a PR discussant, so I am not expecting her review to be lengthy.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Figureskatingfan's comments

Sorry it took me a little while to get over here; as always, my excuse is busyness both here and IRL. Too many irons in the fire, as they say! I'm not sure how much more I can add, but I'll look over this article as a non-baseball fan and as requested, give my general impressions. I indeed conducted this article's PR, so as a non-fan, I appreciate the input and feedback here. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lead: I'm not sure I like the 2nd sentence; it strikes me as self-referent, but I understand why it's there, so that readers understand that an attempt was made to make it accessible to both fans and non-fans. I'm not sure I like the phrase "common language", but I can't think of an alternative.

Background

  • In the eight starts between July 10 and August 14... I had to think about what this means, which is an indication (at least to me) that it's sports-speak. Perhaps you can clarify, like this: "In the eight games between July 10 and August 14, in which he started as the pitcher..." or something to that effect.

The streak

  • ...and for contending for the NL Cy Young Award, given to the best NL pitcher in the local press. The purpose of the award is unclear to me. By "local press" do you mean only newspapers and media outlets from the team's home town? I suggest that you add a little bit of explanation here, like who votes for it. IOW, I don't understand the distinction between local and national media. I mean, The L.A. Times is a local paper, but it's read nationally, right?

Reaction and outcome

  • ...he was forced to grind two years in both Double A and Triple A baseball. I can't be sure what "grind" means here; I suggest that you re-word, please.
  • (lower numbers were generally assigned to better prospects in those days) Again, I have a pretty good idea what this means, but there's no way for me to verify my assumptions. Please explain.
    • There was a time in baseball (19th century) when uniforms were often assigned by position 1-pitcher, 2-catcher, 3-1B, 4-2B, 5-3B, 6-SS, 7-RF, 8-CF, 9-LF, with the substitutes being given 10, 11, etc. It was prestigious to have a single digit jersey number because it meant that you were expected to be a starter. I don't know much about how the traditions gradually changed but over time some higher numbers became acceptable. Still during spring training all the lower numbers are generally assigned to the players most likely to make the team. Baseball has a 25 man roster but probably invites 50+ players for tryouts. Guys who end up with higher numbers are long shots to make the team. I don't have sources for all this stuff, but I don't know what you need to see in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • After seeking arbitration in January... Why did he need arbitration? If I've asked this before, or if that's self-evident, please ignore this question. Come to think of it, if you've resolved any of my comments in our previous PR, very little of which is in my working memory at this point, please ignore what I state here.

I have mixed feelings, but I think I can SUPPORT this article for FA. Tony and I got into it a little during the PR (I do remember this part) regarding the accessibility of this article to non-fans. He said that he didn't understand why sports articles had to be accessible, since many science articles aren't. I disagreed at the time, and challenged him to make it as accessible as possible. Considering it now, I think that Tony has a point. First off, non-fans like me don't tend to read articles like this anyway, and when I do, I look for enough general information to follow the gist of what happened, and I think that this article does that fine. Secondly, while it's true that I don't understand much of the sports-language here, it's also true that the FA Bacteria contains much I as a non-scientist don't understand, but there's much of it I can understand. In the literature articles that I work on and have submitted to FAC, reviewers tell me I need to be more clear about aspects that I as someone who's familiar with the topic find obvious. IOW, I'm not sure how much further this article can go in being more "accessible". I think it's clear as possible, considering the topic, and that it tells a compelling story. I'm also fine with the tables, especially with the collapsible ones; they break up the prose and serve the same purpose, I think, as images. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Meh; weak support, I guess - While I still feel the article is a tad jargony, I agree with Christine's comment above, and would also assert that this article is about an inherently jargony topic - baseball ... I am not sure there is a sport whose jargon is so intrinsic, so some jargon is to be expected. However, I think the portion that remains is reasonable considering the size and topic of the article. Also, I am not sure about the play-by-play tables, particularly about the innings they reference, but one person has already opposed based on that, and it is not a hill on which I am willing to die, so I will let it go. Obviously, much hard work has gone into this article, and though I don't think it is perfect, I cannot in good conscience say that my remaining objections are related specifically to the FA criteria, and as such, I will weakly support. Go Phightins! 19:11, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jim

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I've deliberately waited to see what others have said because, as a Brit, I know nothing about this game. I appreciate the work that has gone into the article, and Tony's probably done as much as could reasonably be done to make an inherently jargon-rich subject more accessible. Some initial comments:

  • which are described below both in common language and official baseball play-by-play scoring language—do you need to say this? It doesn't strike me as particularly encyclopaedic.
  • former Dodger pitcher Don Drysdale in 1968; as a Dodgers radio announcer...—Why aren't these both Dodgers'  ? Not even consistent within the same sentence either
  • umpire ruling—umpire's?
  • 9-game—nine-game
  • the Dodger rotation on July 14.—Dodgers'
  • Dodger coach Manny Mota —Dodgers'
  • Dodger manager Tommy Lasorda —Dodgers'
  • greatest streaks in sports history and among baseball's greatest record '—avoid repeat of "greatest" in same sentence
  • The win marked the Dodger's fifth—Dodgers' I would have thought. Please check for other permutations of Dodger(')(s)(')
I'll have another read through if I get time Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Strange, I can't find Manny Mota either, but I surely didn't make it up. With my own UK team, it's common to see Spurs coach Tim Sherwood instead of Spurs' coach, but it needs to be consistent, and the latter is, I think, more accurate. I'm taking the content on trust, but I can't see any other prose issues Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Wehwalt

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Working on it but I don't have a lot of time right now so it will be spread out over several days. Here's a start:
Lede
  • "spanned from" Is this a proper expression?
  • " for the 1988 season" cut, redundant
  • "rather than include" including?
Background
  • Is the period between 1963 and 2013 particularly relevant? I've seen baseball statistics since 1901 and since 1920.
  • Can it be done since 1901, perhaps? I'm leery of those statistics they put on the screen on ESPN that are "since 19XX" without an explanation of the relevance of the year.
  • I would move the year 1968 to after June 4, cutting the one after June 8
The Streak
  • I seem to recall something in the MOS about not beginning a section title with "The", but I can't put my finger on it. I'll let you know if I find it.
  • It might be helpful if you mentioned what the 13 runs broke down to on a per nine innings basis.
  • Is there any way to resolve the conflict between the Tribune and USA Today"?
Looking at it again, it looks OK.
The Streak, resumed
  • "Several North American newspapers ran parts of an Associated Press story " how is where the AP story ran relevant?
  • I would separate the postseason appearance against the Mets from the table at least with some lines to remark it was a postseason appearance. If this is technically feasible
  • "The game marked Hershiser's tenth and third consecutive complete game that season" Huh?
  • " NL-leading" NL East-leading, or are you saying they had the best record in the league (which they did, of course)
  • "the four complete games" this almost repeated the opening phrase. Perhaps switch to "those games"
  • "he struck out Eric Davis " the reader could be forgiven if he thinks "he" is Danny Jackson. You might want to mention which team Jackson pitched for.
Will finish in the morning.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The win marked Hershiser's seventh consecutive win " I'm sure you can get rid of the double usage.
  • " final career start for the Astros." I would strike "career" as it might be taken to say that Ryan retired after 1988, which he did not. It might even be useful to mention something like "before departing for the Texas Rangers"
  • The word shutout is used a lot late in the September 19 section.
  • "according to articles written by ESPN and the Los Angeles Times," unless there is doubt that this happened, I would delete.
  • Reading the account of what you, in The Streak described as "favorable umpire interference ruling", I don't see that the umpire interfered, Butler did.
  • I think you should make it clear at the start of the September 28 section that the Dodgers had clinched the NL West, rather than waiting for the second paragraph, as it (to baseball fans anyway) is important to the consideration of the other facts, such as there was no actual need to pitch Hershiser as nothing was at stake but the streak and the Cy.
  • "no Padre had even reached second base safely." I am not sure what "even" and "safely" add.
  • "Hershiser's record was overlooked " I recollect coverage of it, in DC. Perhaps something a little softer might be justified.
  • On the Mets game, you might want to remind people this was Game One.
  • "sinker" is double-linked. As is hit and run
  • "pitching coach Perranoski made a double switch before getting to the mound to talk to Hershiser." the non-baseball fan may be unclear that this removed Hershiser from the game.
  • "in calendar days" I'm not quite sure what this means.
  • You may want to clarify which of the runs scored by the Mets were Hershiser's responsibility and which were not. It's all rather muddled in with the talk of scoreless inning streaks, which in the case of this relief pitcher, I would note would be unaffected (I assume?) by allowing batters who are another pitcher's responsibility to score.
  • "1988 NL Championship Series" some of this content, and certainly the link, should be moved to the game against the Mets. Possibly begin with Cone's comment and then tell about how Hershiser got the MVP awards.
  • "309 2⁄3 innings pitched including both the regular season and postseason has not been surpassed since 1988." perhaps after "postseason" add ", although not a record,"
  • "against the Braves (a post-1920 record)" for beating the Braves in particular or any single team?
  • It should likely be mentioned that Hershiser's 1995 and 1997 efforts were for Cleveland.
That's it. Good work.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:46, 21 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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