Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Luan Da/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:41, 16 August 2008 [1].

Luan Da

Nominator(s): Nousernamesleft (talk)

This article is short. Very short. It has only 10 inline citations and only four distinct references. Despite all this, I believe it's comprehensive and well-written - both a primary source (which may be the only one) and several secondary sources exist, which provide ample material for such an obscure figure. Self-nom. Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Do you have any approximate birth/death date & place info.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I do not. I doubt that birth/death date could be found (obviously, he was killed during Wudi's reign, and was born before Wudi's reign and after the founding of the Han Dynasty, but those are extremely vague specifications), but perhaps I could find his province (or even city) of origin. I'll have a look. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just realised that his province of origin was already in the article. Oops. I'll add that to the first sentence. Some other minor interesting material from a fifth source has also been found; I'll add it. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Approximate birth and death dates (century - 3rd century AD or decade - 220s AD) would be better than nothing, IMO. See Wikipedia:MOSDATE#Dates_of_birth_and_death.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've simply added the years of Emperor Wu's reign. Nousernamesleft (talk) 22:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I've added two more sources for minor information. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All of the sources appear to be British or American, aside from the primary source itself. Is it possible there is additional information in Chinese sources? Tuf-Kat (talk) 01:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I doubt that more than two primary sources exist, I can't get the second one (though it's mentioned; it's the Shih-ji, and I have a source that quotes it) and one out of two doesn't seem so bad. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I really meant are there any Chinese secondary sources that might have additional info? Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Aha. I don't really think so; GBooks doesn't yield any, and a general Google search turns up no results as well. Several databases (Gale Infotrac, WorldBook, Grolier's) have all been checked - not a trace. The only result on JSTOR is the Alchemy paper. Nousernamesleft (talk) 02:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strike the following: Whiskeydog (talk) 05:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC) I could not support this in its current form. I don't agree with the nominator that it is well written. There are some odd sentence constructions, including overly short sentences that don't give one a feeling of confidence in the writing.[reply]
"the emperor"--What emperor (who)? This is in the lead--situate the article.
"rose to a point in which"--odd phrasing
"such practices were popular"--no clear referent
"Whenever they attempted"--no clear referent. Well, it becomes clear later in the sentence, but the surrounding text doesn't support this type of sentence construction.
"The emperor Luan Da would eventually be employed by had killed"--odd phrasing. This is a perfect example of how considering the word "that" (or "whom", in this case) optional ruins a reader's ability to parse a sentence. Better yet, rewrite the sentence.

I don't find the article compelling at all, and I'm not sure if this is because the availability of sources limits the article, or the secondary material in the article hasn't been contextualized (explained) enough, or because the writing has little flow. I hope you will consider this criticism to be constructive. Whiskeydog (talk) 01:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very constructive. I'm always grateful to prose reviewers. I'll try to clean up the article to your liking, either later today or tomorrow. Nousernamesleft (talk) 01:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cleaned up the prose. Better? Nousernamesleft (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Much better. I took the liberty of making some further copyedits, and you can now consider me "neutral". Whiskeydog (talk) 05:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Is the Eno ref a book or a journal article or what? Usually quotation marks mean a journal title, but italics mean a book title. Any chance of an ISBN if it's a book? And is it Eno or Enos?~~
~~Please, there should be an author of some sort for the Cambridge Shorter Science... and according to World Cat, there is: http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=9780521315609&qt=owc_search. Please include.~~
~~Once that's included, please alphabetize your bibliography?~~

Otherwise links checked out with the link checker tool. Sources looked okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed except the Eno ref: I used the {{cite paper}} template; I don't think it's a journal, and it's most definitely not a book. It looks like an independently published paper by this person. Nousernamesleft (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- - Eno ref needs a last access date, otherwise looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done. Nousernamesleft (talk) 19:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"from the state of state of Yue" - emphasis mine...
"He gained the favor of the emperor..." - can you name the emperor here (the first time he's alluded to)?
"The practice, and as a result, Luan Da, later, however, fell from favor, - painful overuse of commas - very hard to make any sense of it.
"(which, according to Chinese historian Mark Edward Lewis, consists of the Qin and Han Dynasties)" - if he's a credible source, then just state what it consists of (ie. don't name him).
"who had studied with the same teacher as Luan Da" - I'm not familiar with the Chinese convention for naming people, but I take it they don't have surnames...?

Yeah, the prose is OK but could do with a bit of work still. —Giggy 01:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. For the last one: Chinese do have surnames nowadays, but common folk (i.e. not aristocracy/nobility) in that time didn't. Luan Da came from rural/peasant/common origins (the slave bit in the article). 'Nuff said. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that makes sense. It's been a while since I studied Chinese, so I don't remember the specifics (despite having done it for 7 years...). Support as the rest seems fine. —Giggy 06:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - References have been replaced with Doibot. --Meld shal 42? 19:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.