Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Leroy Chollet/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 28 October 2024 [1].

Leroy Chollet

Nominator(s): Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I first read about Leroy Chollet in a local newspaper that mentioned him as an African American basketball player who played in the Whites-only inaugural NBA Finals because he did not tell anybody that he was Black. That sounded a bit off, so I googled him but didn't find much. The Wikipedia article was a stub. As I read about the guy, I expanded his article. This is my first nomination, so feel free to offer any guidance on this process. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h

Lovely article. I'll take a look. All of the suggestions listed may be rejected with justification. 750 h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lead

and became a teacher and varsity head coach for the school. I'd remove "for the school"; i think the start of the sentence does the job

early life

No problems here. 750 h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

college carreer

colleges were segregated, and neither remove the comma
rival colleges Louisiana State University (LSU) and Tulane remove the acronym "(LSU)", as it's not used later in the article

professional career

ball to the teams' veteran players ==> "ball to the team's veteran players"

later life

No problems here. 750 h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work for a first nomination, short and sweet article, hope we'll be seeing this on the main page as TFA soon! 750 h+ 16:05, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, 750h+, I've addressed the comments above in the article,[2] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. 750 h+ 23:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

I did the GA review for this and am glad to see it here at FAC. I left some comments on the article talk page in preparation for FAC, and I see those have been dealt with, but rereading the article now I have a couple more comments.

I can see why the Loyola national championship is mentioned in the first sentence, but it's awkward because the third sentence has to repeat the information, since we're recounting his timeline and that's early in it. It might be best to cut the first sentence all the way down to "was an American professional basketball player", and let the succeeding sentences tell the story.
Suggest adding "He died in 1998" to the end of the lead.
In the lead, "When Chollet's African American heritage was revealed" is followed by a note giving the details of his paternal great-grandmother, and that note is used again in the body of the article. I don't see any reason why those details can't be brought into the body, and for the lead I'd suggest something like this: "Chollet had one black great-grandparent, and when this was revealed he was pressured into leaving Loyola. He moved to New York ..."
Why is note 3 in a note instead of in the body of the article? It's only marginally relevant to Chollet, but if we're going to include it at all I think it's interesting enough to be promoted to the body of the article.
Similarly can we incorporate notes 4 and 5 into the article? These are good quotes; no reason to bury them; and "could not influence the unfolding events" is not as effective as the quotes it summarizes.
"Louisiana newspapers did not openly publish their ancestry": what is meant by "openly publish"? I'm sure this isn't in contrast to clandestinely publishing their ancestry, but I don't know what is intended instead.
Can we get links for the BAA and NBL, and a link in the body for the Syracuse Nationals (currently only linked in the lead and infobox).
"Chollet was the varsity head coach from 1956 to 1960 and retired from teaching in 1985. He was an administrator for community sports programs at the Lakewood Recreation Department from 1960 to 1980": any reason this is out of chronological order? Can we mention his retirement after his work for Lakewood Recreation Department, in other words?

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Mike Christie, addressed in article,^[3] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 14:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support; fixes look good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"he became a role player" - what's a "role player"? Is there an appropriate link? I presume it doesn't mean that he played Dungeons & Dragons ;-)
"Chollet signed with the Syracuse Nationals" - link the Nats
"In the NBA, Chollet was a reserve guard tasked with facilitating" - are there appropriate links to whatever a "reserve guard" is and whatever "facilitating" is?
"Chollet was the varsity head coach" - what does this mean? "Varsity" would suggest to me a university, but it was a high school.....?
That's all I got on prose -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, ChrisTheDude! Linked the Nats. I've added "role player" to the glossary of basketball terms and added a link to this article's lead. In the body, I've tried to explain his role in the NBA with less jargon. Is that more clear? Regarding "varsity", I've specified that he was a high school varsity coach and added piped links to varsity team. In high school, it contrasts with a JV or freshman coach. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 03:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review

Images are well placed. Have the newspapers been checked for a copyright notice? Does the ALT text for the second image have to be this long. Source-wise, is there a reason for the inconsistent application of "via newspapers.com."? What makes Statscrew a reliable source? Newspapers seem to be inconsistently formatted, both between the "References" and "Sources" section. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the newspapers for copyright notices.
The alt text is longer for one image because it includes the caption from the newspaper. This makes the text in the image accessible (Example 3). To shorten it, I'd need to crop out the caption.
Removed "via newspapers.com".
I'm basing the reliability of Stats Crew on WP:USEBYOTHERS. It has been cited by a variety of reliable news sources,[4][5][6] and I don't see any doubting it. The article cites it only for the table of ABL stats, so if it doesn't meet FA standards, I can remove that two-line table.
For consistency, I've used similar parameters for all the newspaper sources.[7] The sources cited inline and left out of the "References" section list are all primary sources.

Thanks for checking it out, Jo-Jo Eumerus, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 18:19, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why I am questioning Stats Crew is because I don't see a clear editorial mechanism. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Gotcha, I've removed the ABL stats cited to Stats Crew. It's just there as an external link now. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 13:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems OK. Unrelated to sourcing, but ALS should be spelled out IMO. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Done. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like this passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jo-Jo, as a first-timer, this one also needs a source to text fidelity check and a plagiarism check. Is this something you may feel like covering? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check

* 1 Can I have a copy of this source?

Why does the article use different names than the source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see "Alfred, grew up and married a woman named Olga" in the source and "Olga and Alfred" in the article. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Somehow I put a comment about the current source #6 (about the brothers) under #1. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:01, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus Gotcha. Looking at those pages Leroy Patrick Chollet and Hillary Anthony Chollet seem to match the article. Most sources call Robert Alfred Chollet "Al Chollet" or "Al". To make clear that Wikipedia is not the one giving him a nickname, I've done a small change.[8] On page 70, second paragraph, that source begins calling him Al. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 15:15, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2 Where does it discuss retirement?
Check [37] at the end of the sentence, "The Canisius grad said during the past season that it would be his last year. [in the ABL] [...] LeRoy will be moving into a new field this Fall, that of high school coaching and teaching." I added citation [2] to the end of the paragraph because I was citing older sources and needed a more recent overview. "Career" lists the years he played professional basketball or coached high school basketball. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

5 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

7 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

8 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

9 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

10 Can I have a copy of this source?
On which basis are some teams mentioned and others aren't? I know it's a long list but there has to be some selection criterium. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus I added every team that I could clearly identify.[9] That was too many, so I removed each team that was not mentioned at least 15 times.[10] I think that meets WP:DUE, but let me know if that method seems too arbitrary, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:53, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:01, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

12 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

16 That doesn't say "Chollet parents endured harassment" exactly, nor "both brothers were pushed out of New Orleans' white universities"
I messed that one up when reformatting something else. I've added the citation to Lewis (2020) at the end of the sentence. It says, "Alfred and his wife, Olga, had been harassed after word got out about their lineage". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

17 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

19 It doesn't say "Canisius later claimed Leroy Chollet as their first African American basketball player"
That 2023 source says "the school claims Chollet as its first African-American basketball player". Is the concern about changing the tense? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, just an oversight. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

23 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

24 OK

25 Can I have a copy of this source?
[11] I've gone back now that I have consistent access to their site and linked clippings of each of the sources available via newspapers.com. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That one says 1117, not 1116? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus It does, but the school's official records and modern secondary sources give 1116. I'm not sure why their running total was one point off. If it's needed, I can add a footnote explaing all that, Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 14:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably better to put a footnote, numbers in the source being different from these in the article is something I always view as suspect. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:51, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha. It's currently footnote [c], done similar to the examples at WP:WSAW. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

27 Where does it say that?
"Even with the impressive National in its name, the NBL remained primarily based in the Midwest and Great Lakes region during its life span. Despite its geographical limits, the NBL became the premier and most stable basketball league of its era. [...] During its first six seasons, when the league was largely populated by pre-merger players, the NBA was dependent on and dominated by the old NBL teams. The first six NBA champions were former NBL teams. Even the franchises finishing as Finals runners-up were mainly from the NBL." Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:44, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

28 Where is "Syracuse was one of the league's smallest markets"? Also, I am not sure that "playing time" was the main issue going by the source.
"Syracuse. I was there longer than anywhere else, as both a player and coach. It was one of the smallest towns in the league," and "Cervi did not use Chollet much [...] Chollet did not send Cervi in until the last 30 seconds or so—about the usual time Cervi sent in Leroy". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

29 Can I have a copy of this source?
[12] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, including after the sentence split. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

30 Can I have a copy of this source?
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~38 Can I have a copy of this source?~~
~~OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

I notice that there is an inconsistent citation format between the notes and the article text. Unrelated, but I wonder if Milan Cemetery could be linked anywhere - for me it sounds like Milan the Italian city. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I appreciate you checking them out. In one case above, I somehow removed a citation without realizing it and have put it back. In the others I've offered quotes. I've wiki-linked Milan to Milan, Ohio. Regarding "an inconsistent citation format between the notes and the article text", does that mean using citation footnotes in the explanatory footnotes? That's worse for accessibility (on mobile), but I can do that if it's an FA requirement. To provide a copy of the sources noted above, can I email you? Since you're catching some errors, I'm going to try to double-check the cited pages first. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes (on the email thing) and yes (the footnotes and article text should be using the same citation style) Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The explanatory notes now also have footnotes (instead of parenthetical citations). I've added links to two of the requests above. With newspapers.com working consistently, I was able to clip and link a bunch of the newspaper sources. Since the first post in this section,[13] I've gone over the citations and added a page number to one of them, so the footnote numbers will be different. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:25, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we are done here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again. I appreciate the patience with citation questions, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 17:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

"He retired from professional basketball, married Barbara Knaus, and moved to her hometown, Lakewood, Ohio". Could we have a date for each of these three things. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done: added a secondary newspaper source talking about Chollet's personal life and a primary newspaper source for the marriage license to give the date.[14] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.