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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:36, 31 July 2010 [1].

Kent, Ohio

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Kent, Ohio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): JonRidinger (talk) 21:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kent is a college town in Ohio and probably best known for being home of Kent State University and the events surrounding the Kent State shootings in 1970. I am nominating this for featured article because based on listed FA criteria, I believe this meets them. While there are several FA-class articles about cities, there are few of this city size. I wrote or re-wrote much of the article myself bringing it from a C-class to GA recently using several FA class city articles as examples and guides as well as consulting the FA guidelines. --JonRidinger (talk) 21:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose File:Kentlogo.png fails wp:nfcc hence the article fails wp:FA Criteria 3 Fasach Nua (talk) 22:24, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could you state how it fails NRCC? I'm not seeing it. It's correctly licensed, attributed, low resolution, limited use (that is the only use on Wikipedia), no free equivalent available, etc. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm guessing the issue is the purpose of use, i.e. how does the non-free logo "contribute significantly to the article(s) in which it is used"? Dabomb87 (talk) 04:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Thanks for being more specific!  :) The Infobox for cities contains parameters for a city seal and many FA city articles have their respective city seals. I updated the "purpose" section using the generic template from File:Cleveland seal-T.png (since the two seals serve the same purpose within their respective articles) as the one at the Kent logo was a previous, less wordy, form of the generic rationale template if I remember correctly. --JonRidinger (talk) 05:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The PBS site appears to be down temporarily across the board at this point (even www.pbs.org won't open), so perhaps wait on that? If needs be, the PBS source is one of two sources for that info, so it could simply be removed if the site stays down too long. As for all three OHSAA links, all three opened on my browser with no problems. They are PDF files so that may have been an issue.
The source for St. Patrick from ODE is one that cannot be linked to directly, so I linked to the search results page. My worry is that it won't work later, but we'll see I guess. Replaced the KSU police link and KentNewsNet.com as both simply updated their web addresses. I replaced the kentwater.org source with a different source as it has been down for some time. --JonRidinger (talk) 07:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fixes. The OHSAA links still don't load for me, and the webapp2.ode.state.oh.us link produces a blank search results page. Ucucha 16:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The OHSAA links opened in my AOL and Google Chrome browsers, so not sure whats up there. Really bizarre. The ODE link was, like a I suspected, a temporary link. The only way to get the results is to actually perform the search again using "St Patrick" for the school (no period after "St") and "Kent" for the city. Some websites have ways listed to overcome this, but ODE does not that I could find. I placed a note in the citation itself as I don't see what else I could do there since the link that shows up in my browser is not a placeholder. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The OHSAA links still don't work for me in either Firefox or Safari. I struck the webapp2 link as the note in the citation should do the job. Ucucha 18:40, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I tried all three on my laptop in Firefox and all three opened, so I don't know what else to do. Is anyone else having problems opening them? I'm just really perplexed. Could it be a connection issue or a problem with Adobe Reader? --JonRidinger (talk) 21:18, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not Adobe; the first link is not a PDF (and anyway, other PDFs work fine). Yes, I'd like to know whether other people can get them. Ucucha 21:21, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, just noticed the first one isn't PDF. Really bizarre. I will try to bounce them off some trusted people. --JonRidinger (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was asked to look at the three links and all of them worked for me with no problems using two different browsers: IE and Firefox. I have not checked anything else with the article. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They do work for me on a different computer. I guess we should just blame it on my laptop. Ucucha 15:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources review: In general the sources look OK, but there are several minor issues, mainly concerning format:
  • Ref 5: The citation should be to the original map, not to a Wikipedia page that holds a copy of the map.
    • I placed the link within the previous reference ("See also") as the map is much more of a footnote than a source.
  • Ref 13: should have a link to the pdf file
    • Removed the "format" parameter as the PDF file is no longer available online (though I have it on my computer).
  • Ref 16: missing ISBN
    • If an ISBN exists, I have never seen it and it is not in the book itself (which I have...same goes for the history book by Karl Grismer). The book was published locally by the historical society at a local print shop
  • Refs 39 and 43: For consistency, these should be cited to "Locke, pp. "
    • Fixed
  • Refs 69, 72 and 77: missing retrieval dates
    • Fixed
  • Ref 104: comment as per 5 above
    • Did the same as above, combining with related citation. Map is much more of a visual footnote than the main reference.
  • Ref 116: missing ISBN
    • This is a published thesis, so it does not have an ISBN that I am aware of
  • Ref 139: missing retrieval date
    • Fixed
  • Ref 141: Fusion Magazine should be italicised
    • Fixed
  • Ref 156: lacks retrieval date
  • Ref 157: lacks retrieval date
    • Both fixed

Brianboulton (talk) 14:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

JonRidinger (talk) 18:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Jon asked me to check whether three specific links worked for me; here are my findings —
  • Corrections: I corrected a link in the media section that went to Citadel Media (which was supposed to go to "ABC Radio") and directed it the correct ABC News Radio. I also added the correct call sign to "W35AX", which was listed as just "WAX". Probably shouldn't what the locals call a station and the actual callsign. I will leave the other sections to everyone else. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 22:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per Jon's request, I have checked, and concur with others reporting the same findings, they all do open. Hopefully this is helpful.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 22:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Few quick ones from the sport-related section:

  • A couple of abbreviations could stand to be spelled out in their first use with the initals in parentheses: NCAA and OHSAA.
It was always my understanding that if a Wikilink is provided then we don't need to include the full name, but I included the full name with the abbreviation in parenthesis. I can understand that for OHSAA, but does NCAA need to be fully spelled out since it seems to be a pretty universally recognized abbreviation?
Seems like this has been addressed, but for the record the NCAA is hardly "universally" recognized, especially for those who live outside North America. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you're right. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of the OHSAA, it is linked twice in this section. I doubt more than a single link is needed for those interested in the topic.
Removed the second link
  • "Several of Kent State's teams have enjoyed league and national success, with the most notable being...". This is an example of a noun plus -ing sentence structure, a common prose issue. To fix this one, consider a variant of "; the most notable is the men's basketball team's...".
Removed "with" after reading the essay
  • Not sport-related, but happened to notice that reference 160 has part of the title in all caps, which are discouraged.
Fixed

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 03:16, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--JonRidinger (talk) 03:47, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ruhrfisch - I think this has all the required information and is nicely illustrated and organized, but there are some places where the text could use a bit of polish and some MOS issues.

  • Lead - I am much more used to seeing "hiking ... trails" than "hike ... trails", would that read better in this: While most residents drive private vehicles, alternate transportation includes a public bus service and hike and bike trails.
    • This comes from the name of the trails, branches of the "Portage Hike and Bike Trail". Much more of "hike and bike" trails than "hike" and "bike" trails. Perhaps hike-and-bike? It's different than a simple hiking trail.
  • I would also link Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Combined Statistical Area in the lead (I know it is a redirect to greater Cleveleand), as it is linked later in the article.
    • done
  • History - I would make it clearer here that Brady's Leap actually took place in what is now Kent, perhaps by mentioning the site is now a park in the city (I know the park is mentioned later). I also really doubt Brady was fleeing the Mound Builders - are the identities of any of the tribes known (and if so can they be added to the article)?
    • There is no deifnitive answer as to which tribe, though many have stated it was the Seneca; however no reliable source verifies that. I placed "an unknown tribe of American Indians"
  • I assume the township was named for "Aaron Franklin Olmstead", if so I would spell that out in Aaron Olmstead, a wealthy Connecticut merchant, had purchased the 16,000-acre (6,500 ha) township for $2,000 (approximately $25,553 present-day) and named it for his son Aaron Franklin.[5]
    • Added last name; I guess it seemed redundant when I wrote it to include his last name.
  • This could be tightened Franklin Township was surveyed in 1803 and settled in November 1805 by the Haymaker family who moved west from Warren and settled on the banks of the Cuyahoga River before building a gristmill in 1807. John Haymaker and his family arrived first in late 1805 and were later joined by John's brother George and their father Jacob Haymaker and their families early the next year.[6] as something like Franklin Township was surveyed in 1803 and settled in November 1805, when John Haymaker and his family moved west from Warren to the banks of the Cuyahoga River. They were joined by John's brother George and their father Jacob Haymaker and their families early the next year, and built a gristmill in 1807.[6]
    • Works for me
  • The preceding sentences could also be the start of a new paragraph (split the first paragraph of History)
    • Again, works for me
  • Watch WP:OVERLINKing - for example Cuyahoga River is linked at least eight times in the article, three in just the History section. Generally articles should be linked at most once in the lead, and once at the first occurrence in the article, plus captions etc.
  • Is the year the P&O Canal opened known? If so I would add it to the article.
  • I think the Underground Railroad sentences could be their own paragraph too. Avoid words like "today" (use something like "as of 2010" instead) in There were three notable stops in Franklin Mills, one of which still stands today.[9]
  • This needs a ref During this period, from 1835–1839, noted American abolitionist John Brown moved to the village, operating a tannery along the Cuyahoga River with Zenas Kent.
    • Added ref and divided paragraph
  • I know it is mentioned later in Economy, but would it make sense to mention that the Davey is Kent's largest private employer as of 2010 in History? Or even that the company is still very important in Kent today.
    • Made mention it is headquartered in Kent and is the largest private employer
  • What was the industry that burned here? After a fire destroyed one of the city's main industries in 1909,... could it be briefly identified, i.e. something like After a 1909 fire destroyed the ping-pong ball factory, one of the city's main industries, ...
    • Added...it was the Seneca Chain Company
  • Since Gov. Davey was the son of the Tree Surgeon, should that be mentioned? The bill giving Kent State university status was signed into law by Ohio governor and Kent native Martin L. Davey, son of tree surgeon John Davey.[14]
    • Made mention since I did it for William S. Kent earlier in the paragraph, though since Martin L. Davey has his own article it's not super critical to me.
  • Since there are several memorials to the Kent State shootings on the campus and the site is now listed on the NRHP, I would probably add a sentence to the KSU shootings section to that effect (the effects of the shooting lasted far longer in Kent than May 1970)
    • Indeed the effects still exist. I have much more background detail at the History of Kent, Ohio article, which was originally intended for this article before I realized it was getting too long. I added mention of the NRHP and the monuments and commemoriations over the years. It's hard to mention a lot of the other effects because they aren't really sourced. Strain still exists between town and gown, but it doesn't get put into writing very often.
  • Is anything known about the subsequent history of the railroad yards in Kent? Do they still exist or have they closed? I think it might be worth saying either way.
    • Actually attended a historical society gathering at the old rail yards just a few weeks ago. All that is left of the original is one building which houses a portion of a drill manufacturing company. I included when they were completely closed as various parts were moved out at different times from the time they opened in 1865 to 1930. It seemed a bit too much to go into any more detail in the history section. To me the main point is that it was a major industry but no longer is. What the site is used for now seems more trivial since it's not a major employer.
  • Economy - the lead sentence is too long and complex - could it be split into two sentences? One sentence on the river as an early power source, and the other on the later canal and railroads and ease of transportation?
  • Technically the Atlantic and Great Western Railroad ceased to exist in 1880, so perhaps add stuff in []: During the latter half of the 19th century and into the early 20th century, the city's largest employers were all industrially based, including the Atlantic and Great Western Railroad [and its successors], which operated its main maintenance shops in the village; the Seneca Chain Company; and bus manufacturer Twin Coach[,] among others.[43]
  • Start a new paragraph with Changes in the structure of the railroad and declines in the manufacturing sector ...?
  • Avoid "currently" if possible (use "has played an active role ... since YEAR") The university, along with the city and private investors, is currently playing an active role in the redevelopment of downtown Kent ...
    • Did what I could; it is a current event as the developments downtown are still on the drawing board.
  • Culture - is it the "Kent State University Fashion Museum" or just the "Kent State University Museum" (section uses both)?
    • Caught it...it's known locally as the "fashion museum" but is officially the "Kent State University Museum"
  • Also I would put the May 4th commemorations and planned museum together - currently they are in different paragraphs of this section
  • Sports is OK, more soon Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:58, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Government section - could the nature of the agreements be made clearer in Kent Fire also has agreements with Franklin Township and the village of Sugar Bush Knolls.[94] - assume they are mutual aid agreements of some sort Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added that they are coverage agreements
  • Education not 100% clear which district is meant - assume Kent's - in The [former? Kent?] district was created around 1860 and later merged with the Franklin Township and Brady Lake school districts in 1959.[105][106]
    • Added "Kent" to clarify
  • Notable residents and natives last bit on athletes needs a ref - assume Kent State has something useful here.
  • Your call, but the WP:MOSIMAGE says "It is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text." (so the one of Lucius Fairchild could be right justified instead of the current left).
    • Moved the pic back (it was originally on the right), though I usually look at the previous picture when positioning pictures as I don't like there to be a whole bunch on the same side in a row. Oh well. As for the source of KSU athletes, does it need a source when it is essentially summarizing a larger list? Both lists are mentioned at the top as "Main articles" (List of Kent State University alumni and List of people from Kent, Ohio), I ask because I doubt there is a single source that backs that up; it would basically have to include a source for each person or a source for each group (like football, baseball, and basketball). --JonRidinger (talk) 22:19, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The first problem is that WP:V and WP:CITE say that the references need to be in this article. Wikipedia is not a WP:RS, and I looked at the list of people from Kent and it has very few refs, and the first person I checked, Lucius Fairchild, had no ref in the list either. I am OK with no extra refs in this section for people mentioned and referenced elsewhere in the article (the Daveys, for example) but the rest need refs. Sorry. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • No worries...I just wanted to make sure I didn't oversource or do work that would just get removed.

I am done with my review. Am leaning strongly towards support, though I would like to see the last few poitns and the overlinking addressed first. Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:05, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is only one item remaining (refs for notable natives and residents) and you have done a very good job on addressing all the other issues I raised here, so I am switching to support. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm pretty sure I have all the people covered that are mentioned in notable natives. I tried my best to remove the overlinking. In general I followed the one link besides the lead and/or infobox, but I do have more than 2 for links that occur much further apart in the article per WP:REPEATLINK when the links are far apart from each other. So Cuyahoga River and Kent State University, for instance, will have more than 2 links (maybe 2 or 3 outside the lead if I did it right) because they are mentioned throughout the article. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:23, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: per all the work that Ruhrfisch and JonRidinger have done. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 01:33, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It would be nice to know what line of business Marvin Kent was in: town banker? land speculator? both? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:47, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Marvin Kent was in a variety of business ventures including banking, railroads, retail, real estate, and later politics. Seemed like too much detail to go into when there is an article about him linked. "Businessman" seemed to be an appropriate title given his diverse background. I did reword the mention of him in the history to provide a little more clarity --JonRidinger (talk) 04:31, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • I shortened the wording used for the inflation function, and removed the false precision. It was over 200 years ago, so an estimate of the value today to the closest dollar doesn't make sense - the nearest $1,000 is reasonable.
    • The "precision" was from the template, though it was "precise" for 1800 not 1798.
  • "Initial growth in the area was slow, but eventually two small villages would develop due to the potential power generated by the Cuyahoga River that could be used in gristmills and manufacturing." - the wording is awkward. Should probably be "the power that could potentially be generated by the Cuyahoga River..."
    • used "potential for power generated..." since it was the potential power that brought people to the river.
  • "The canal officially opened in 1840, but it would be relatively short-lived, lasting into the 1860s." - Canals aren't really alive, and relative to what? Perhaps something shorter like "but was used only until the 1860s."
    • Changed to "but would only operate into the 1860s."
  • "The company continues to be headquarted in Kent and serves as the city's largest private employer." - unsourced.
    • Sourced in economy; moved source to this section instead
  • "was renamed Kent State University after it was authorized to grant advanced graduate degrees." - should probably be "was renamed Kent State University after it was given authorization to grant advanced graduate degrees."
    • Changed
  • "resulted in significant population growth for the city, growing from just over 12,000 residents at the 1950 census" - "growth" and "growing" so close to each other is awkward. Can you find a synonym for one of them?
  • "while eliminating ongoing problems with traffic congestion and rail crossings being blocked" - awkward wording. Should be something like "while eliminating ongoing problems with traffic congestion and blocked rail crossings".
    • Fixed
  • "In 2003, the old arch dam was bypassed..." - which old arch dam? The text refers to it as if it's an already known quantity.
    • That was a result of an earlier version of the history before it was edited down to the current size. Added a mention in the canal section when it was built and replaced "old" with "1836".
  • Kent State University, Kent State shootings, John Brown, Samuel Brady, [Franklin Township]] - overlinked, sometimes multiply so. Need to link only the first instance in the body of the text, and possibly a link in the lede.
    • I went through and tried to get those (Ruhrfisch also stated that above in his review and seemed satisfied with what I did), following WP:REPEATLINK bullet: "where a later occurrence of an item is a long way from the first." Of those that are linked, as far as I could see they are fairly far apart in their occurances. Like John Brown is at the beginning (history), then in the middle (parks and recreation) and the end (notable natives). That seems to fit the exception for the "one and done" policy. If there are any others that are too close I will remove them.
  • "Koppen climate classification" is an unnecessary redirect.
    • Fixed. It was missing the "ö"
  • "even larger population growth in the 1950s and 1960s growing from 12,148 in 1950" - again, "growth" and "growing" too close together.
    • used "rising" again
  • "For every 100 females there were 84.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 81.0 males." - I assume these ratios are unusual too, and comparisons to Ohio and U.S. might be helpful (similar to previous sentence in paragraph, and following sentence in next paragraph). An explanation for this would be interesting, if one is available in the relevant literature.
    • That's from the original bot-generated paragraph from the census data. I added some comparison with the US and Ohio averages as well as the average of neighboring Franklin Township along with the source.
  • The text uses the word "approximately" many, many times, sometimes in consecutive sentences (e.g. "It hosts approximately 90 concerts, four theatrical performances, and four film festivals or movie premiers per year, including local, national, and international performers. Since opening in 2002, it has been visited by approximately 120,000 patrons...") Could you mix it up with some alternatives, like "around", for example?
    • Did some or took it out completely in some instances
  • "Each year in early May, the university hosts an annual commemoration of the Kent State shootings, which typically includes several speakers, forums, artwork, and other related events.[63] Kent State is currently developing the May 4 Visitors' Center to cover the events surrounding the May 4, 1970 Kent State shootings." "May 4 Kent State shootings" should go in the first sentence, and in the next sentence you need only refer to them as "the shootings", the reader will not lose track of the meaning or context in just one sentence. Also, "currently" should be avoided; see WP:RELTIME. "As of 2010" or something similar would work here.
    • Got it. Reworded
  • "images from May 4" - repetitive. Perhaps "images from the incident" or something similar.
    • "actual event"
  • "In addition to hosting the KSU football team, Kent State's 25,000-seat Dix Stadium has hosted high school football games both in the regular-season and for the state playoffs.[69][70] The adjacent Murphy-Mellis Field hosts Ohio High School Athletic Association (OHSAA) field hockey tournament games and the Diamond at Dix is a site for OHSAA regional softball tournament games." - uses "host" three times in two sentences, and it's used at least twice in the next paragraph. Perhaps an alternative for the second use?
    • got a few out with "venue" and "site"
  • "56-acre (23 ha) Fred Fuller park" - I assume named after a local notable? Some more information on this would be interesting.
    • Put mention of him in the sentence. Former Parks chairmain.
  • "The current mayor is Jerry Fiala who began his term January 1, 2010." "The current city manager", "currently represented by Democrat Kathleen Chandler", "currently represented by Democrat Tom Sawyer" "currently represented by Democrat Tim Ryan" etc. "Current" is a difficult word, because no-one really knows when you wrote the sentence in question. Again, see WP:RELTIME. It should be "as of 2010, the mayor is" or "Jerry Fiala began his term as mayor on January 1, 2010" etc.
    • Removed every instance of "currently" I could find and replaced with "since (year)" where the info was available.
      • I'd still prefer wording like "Jerry Fiala began his term as mayor etc." Just saying "The mayor is Jerry Fiala etc." doesn't solve the problem, because the reader still doesn't know when you wrote that sentence. I do like the later wording (e.g. "represented since 2007 by Democrat Tom Sawyer")
        • This is what it already says: "The mayor is Jerry Fiala who began his term January 1, 2010," so a date is present; same for the city manager in the next sentence. I added an extra comma after Fiala (like the next sentence about the city manager already has). --JonRidinger (talk) 05:57, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Let me try to explain it better. Let's say that city manager Dave Ruller quits in December, and in 2011 a new city manager is hired. Now, if the article says "The city manager is Dave Ruller, who began serving June 15, 2005" then the text in that paragraph will be inaccurate from the second Ruller leaves until the time someone remembers to update the article, which could be days, weeks, or even months. However, if the article instead says "Dave Ruller was hired as city manager on June 15, 2005" then the sentence will always be accurate, even if it isn't updated for years. Does that explain why it's best not to have sentences that explicitly or implicitly use the term "currently"? I'm obviously not going to oppose the FA for this, but I really recommend you re-word it. Jayjg (talk) 00:55, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • OK I got it...thanks for being patient. "Jerry Fiala began his term as mayor January 1, 2010 and Dave Ruller began serving as city manager June 15, 2005." I guess I saw the "present" nature of the representative section and didn't see the difference. Thanks for pointing it out. Never been this far and am happy to see that FA reviews are more thorough now! --JonRidinger (talk) 04:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The largest percentage of funds, 22.8% or $2.6 million, was spent funding the Fire and Emergency medical services and the city's Income Tax Safety Fund, respectively." Three uses of "fund" in one sentence. Please mix it up a little.
    • Took out the two that weren't part of a proper name
  • "around 317 students" - it can't be "around" 317 students, because 317 is an exact number. Something like "over 300 students" would likely stay accurate for much longer, and helps vary the wording in the article.
    • Got it (300)
  • "The Kent Free Library is the main public library. It was established in 1892 and was the first use of an 1892 Ohio law..." A library is a building/institution/organization, it can't be a use of a law. The wording needs to be adjusted here.
    • It was established in 1892 after Kent became the first village in Ohio to use an 1892 state law
  • "Additionally, many notable people have lived in Kent while attending Kent State University, among them comedians Drew Carey..." - the whole section is about "notable people", so we don't need to repeat that. I would shorten it to "Additionally, people who have lived in Kent while attending Kent State University include comedians Drew Carey..."
    • Removed "notable" except in the first sentence
  • Finally, along with/part of Demographics/Culture of Kent, it would be interesting to read a little about religion in Kent - percentage membership in major religions, famous churches/mosques/temples, religious headquarters/seminaries if they exist.
    • Will look for information. There are no major or famous churches/mosques/synagogues that I am aware of here.

Overall, a good article, but I'd like to see these issues addressed. Jayjg (talk) 21:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I still haven't gotten any explanation why the image in question is a problem. The initial concern was not elaborated on by the editor who voiced objection, particularly in light of the fact that many FA city articles incorporate their respective city seals (so there's precedent) and there is a place for them in the settlement infobox. The seal is clearly labeled as a logo and has the standard rationale. Other images are all public domain. Are there any other image problems? --JonRidinger (talk) 04:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does this logo cross the threshold of originality, though? Ucucha 18:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems now the debate is whether or not the logo is even copyrighted. While there is "no blanket use of logos for geographic articles that over-rides the official WP policy" conversely there is no policy that prohibits their use with a valid rationale. In this case, since the tree logo appears on virtually every street sign in the city and on several city buildings, signs, and other things (recycling containers, trash bags, city vehicles), it would make sense that it also be included in the article about the city as city articles are to give a general (yet still thorough) idea of what a reader could expect if he/she went to that particular place. I see it providing much more than a simple decoration to the infobox and disagree that it violates policy, copyrighted or not. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jon on this and I personally think we have wasted more than enough time on this subject (being the seal). They are found on several other FA classed pages about cities and towns, so it isn't like this is the only instance of it happening (examples can be shown). I believe we should get past this and move onto other aspects (if any) of the article. With the edits, changes, and tinkering done to the article, I think this is beyond an FA article and I continue to Support it. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 03:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I incorporated the link to Ohio State Normal College At Kent, a NRHP listing of the original Kent State University campus, though it is a pipe from "site of the school" rather than a direct link. The other two links really can't be incorporated without adding additional info to the history section, which is already long enough, especially considering it has a History of Kent, Ohio article. I personally don't see any violation of WP:LAYOUT#See also here unless you feel each link needs a small accompanying explanation with it. From the guidelines, their presence is certainly appropriate in terms of low number (hardly an excessive amount of links) and relevance to the article itself. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:02, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I realized too late into reading the article that you appear to be on the final stages of an image review. However, I wanted to add my support. The article looks great and is a model for how city articles should be structured, detailed, worded, and illustrated. Excellent job! My only minor comment is that the paragraph mentioning the shootings (under "History") should probably be split. As it stands, the paragraph lacks a common theme and doesn't flow well. – VisionHolder « talk » 04:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I separated the sections you mentioned, keeping the mention of the opening of Haymaker Parkway with the shootings since the two happened at around the same time (1970s); I added an "also in the late 1960s and early 1970s..." to give some kind of connection since the addition of the NRHP listing in 2010 kind of separated the two events. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on 1a. Just looking at the lead, the prose is not up to it:
  1. "It would develop first due to the potential for gristmills along the Cuyahoga River and later as a stop on the Pennsylvania and Ohio Canal in the 1830s and 1840s." The "would" tense is best avoided. "It developed" is straighter. I guess readers will have to hit the link to "gristmills" to learn what they are; could they be glossed in a brief phrase, within commas? The logic is hard, too: first, a potential (what, the gristmills didn't actually happen?), then a "stop", which is at least a concrete thing (but is there a better word than "stop"? I can't think of one at the moment, but maybe there is one).
  2. "which ultimately led to the village being renamed Kent"—an awkward "noun plus -ing" construction. "led to the renaming of the village in 1864 after the ..."?
  3. Careful of "being". "known mostly for being home to the main campus of Kent State University, founded in 1910, and the site of the Kent State shootings in 1970." What about "best-known as home to ...". Logic issue: was it known as home to the shooting? The ellipsis doesn't work, and the sentence needs rephrasing.
  4. "Other important sectors include retail, entertainment and food service, and manufacturing." Name one North American town in which retail isn't an important sector. You might consider omitting this from the lead if it isn't more distinctive. Same for "most residents drive private vehicles" ... it's kind of commonplace. The "hike-and-bike trails" might be worth mentioning here, but probably nothing on transport, really, in the lead. Instead, why not tell us how many festivals and what kind (rock? opera? film?)?
  5. "hosts a number of annual festivals" would be better.
  6. "due to it being the home of"—ouch.Tony (talk) 12:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. rewritten as "Settlers were initially attracted to the area due to its location along the Cuyahoga River as a place for water-powered mills. Later development came as a result of the village being along the route of the Pennsylvania and Ohio Canal in the 1830s and 1840s."

    Much better, like most of these below, except "came in the 1830s and 1840s because the village lay/was on/along the route of ...". The noun plus -ing problem seems to arise when expressing causalities. Tony (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  2. removed "ultimately" though to be honest it doesn't sound that awkward; since it's summarizing what is later explained more in detail in the History section (and even more at History of Kent, Ohio) it seems appropriate.

    "Ultimately" wasn't the issue; it was the [noun] being renamed; my suggestion was a nominalisation.Tony (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  3. "known as the home of..."; also did a few rewordings
  4. How many and what kinds seems a bit too detailed for such a minor part of the article, especially since not all festivals/fairs were that notable to even mention in the culture section. I added mention of 3 of them in a general sense, but seeing as this is giving a general overview of the article, anything more seems like a bit too much detail for an intro.

    Yup, but do you agree that the commonplace stuff wasn't helping to make it a good read? Tony (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  5. OK
  6. Not the best way to help by simply saying "ouch". I reworded it to "As the home of the Davey Tree Expert Company Kent is known as "The Tree City"."

    Good; possible comma before Kent. Tony (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to revisit the rest of the article soon. Sorry to come in so late. You might scan it for these issues. Tony (talk) 17:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC) --JonRidinger (talk) 16:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I went through and changed what I could. Since I've seen this article thousands of times, I am sure there are things I missed. --JonRidinger (talk) 15:43, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I would like to voice my pure and unadulterated pissed-off-ness at this whole FAC. JonRidinger did everything asked of him, but the slowness of other users and editors to respond (some of which just slapped down an oppose and never came back or gave instructions) caused this FAC to be closed and archived. I recommend a full overall of the FAC system if we are to get FACs on the front page or even just approved. We need people who are willing to stick around, give instructions, feedback and others. We have those people now, but they are few and far between and they deserve all the credit we can give them. It is the ones that slap down an oppose and disappear without instructions or feedback or don't respond after days on end, those are the ones that responsible for this FAC being closed. Those people should be ashamed of themselves. This is what turns people off of the hard work it takes to get an article up to FA snuff, why bother if no one is going to be there at your FAC. Pathetic.
I recommend this FAC be reopened, a note about the serious backlog of FAC placed on both AN and ANI, get some damned reviewers who are willing to stick around to help around here and keep going, not just give up. </rant> - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:45, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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