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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 8 August 2021 [1].

John Thirtle

[edit]
Nominator(s): Amitchell125 (talk) 10:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a little-known Norwich artist whose paintings are accomplished depictions of his home city and the surrounding Norfolk countryside. My third member of the Norwich School of painters at FA? Amitchell125 (talk) 10:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

[edit]

An interesting article. I know Norwich quite well and even know a little bit about Norwich painters but Thirtle is new to me and I am pleased to have made his acquaintance in such a clear, well written and beautifully illustrated piece. A few quibbles:

  • Lead
  • We have "frame maker" in the text, "framemaker" in the references (which can't be tampered with) and the OED prints the term as "frame-maker". I generally stick with the OED's prescriptions, but I don't press the point.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "whilst continuing to paint" – I'm never sure what "whilst" has got that a plain "while" hasn't, apart from one extra letter, but again I merely mention it.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He produced relatively few works" – relative to what or whom?
Text deleted (the point is made elsewhere in the lead). Amitchell125 (talk) 07:30, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "has deteriorated due to the fading" – In AmE "due to" is accepted as a compound preposition on a par with "owing to", but in BrE it is not universally so regarded. "Owing to" or, better, "because of" is safer.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Family, early life and apprenticeship
  • "St Saviour's Church, Norwich… a churchwarden at St. Saviour's" – does St have a full stop after it or not? Better to be consistent.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Artistic career
  • Second para – John Crome and Norwich School of painters are given duplicate blue links
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marriage
  • "Thirtle married Elizabeth Miles of Felbrigg, from a minor landowning family in north Norfolk,[5] and whose sister Ann had married" – the "and" jars a bit. You could smooth the sentence by replacing "and whose" with a semicolon and then "her".
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There were likely no children produced from the marriage" – an unexpected, and not especially pleasing, Americanism, where in normal English usage we should say "probably" rather than "likely". And perhaps it would be less wordy to say just "The marriage was probably childless".
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Secession from the Norwich Society of Artists
  • The Twelfth Exhibition of the Norfolk and Norwich Society of Artists – do we usually italicise the titles of art exhibitions? (Question asked from the starting point of complete ignorance.)
Sorted. I'm not entirely sure about italics here either, but other articles don't seem to have them. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:49, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later life
  • "He is known to have suffered from tuberculosis" – Wikipedia has developed, I know not why, a convention, not seen in any other work of reference I know of, that at first mention in a paragraph a pronoun won't do, and it must be the person's name.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Technique
  • "Cotman, who was his brother-in-law" – you've already told us that.
Text amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:52, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 39 – link seems broken. I suggest adding the page number (p. 11) and removing the url.
As I can access the link as a member of a public library, I've added the page number, kept the url, and added a subscription template. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Margarie Allthorpe-Guyton" – she was Marjorie Allthorpe-Guyton earlier in the article
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "We went on to paint" – I imagine this should be "He went on …"
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Art historian Derek Clifford" – a pity to introduce a clunky AmE false title this late into an otherwise impeccably BrE article.
Sentence amended, and Clifford should have been introduced earlier on, so I moved it up a bit. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use of indigo
  • "a cheap form of indigo that sold by a local dealer" – is the "that" intended here?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:11, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy
  • "Thirtle was praised for his work in the local press" – might be less ambiguous to say "Thirtle was praised in the local press for his work", or even "The local press praised Thirtle for his work".
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:13, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Norwich Mercury" – but The Times earlier on has its definite article capitalised and italicised (quite rightly)
Done, but see Illustrated Daily News (FA); New York Herald Tribune (GA) to understand why I'm not quite convinced The Norwich Mercury now looks right. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:20, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point: there is no one right way in these matters (as witness the eccentric practice of the paper I read every day, which calls itself the Guardian (lower case article and no italics). Tim riley talk 10:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the exhibition forced to close" – was forced to close?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my few quibbles. I'll look in again, with a view to supporting, all being well. Tim riley talk 22:28, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

​Thanks for these comments, there's just one (about the newspaper) that might need discussing. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support the promotion of this article to FA. It meets all the FA criteria, in my view (and I thoroughly enjoyed reading and reviewing it). Tim riley talk 10:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review — Pass

[edit]
  • #13 — Why not cite the original dictionary entry instead?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:20, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • #16 — I'm a bit confused by the cite. What does "T. National Portrait Gallery" mean?
"National Portrait Gallery: British picture framemakers, 1600–1950 – T" is what is says on the web page. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:53, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. I've added a link to National Portrait Gallery, which hopefully makes the separation a bit more obvious. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:40, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • #39 — This is long out of copyright. Is there no freely available version online? Also, The Times can take a link.
Link added. I've never been able to find a free online version of The Times, unfortunately. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With Gale's newspaper databases, I've had some luck with right clicking on the papers, opening the images in a new tab, and then playing with the URLs to cut the page to size. It's a process, but can work. See ref #2 at George Sidney Herbert, for instance. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It worked (thanks for the tip). Amitchell125 (talk) 07:10, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • #40 — Ashmolean Museum can take a link. ", Oxford" is probably not needed, given that the next line is "University of Oxford".
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • #52–53 — Why are the dates and page numbers in the title fields? Mention of the need for a subscription should be added.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:18, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think of it, The British Newspaper Archive isn't the publisher. It should be in a "| via = The British Newspaper Archive" parameter instead. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clifford 1965 — Publisher location missing.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dickes 1906 — Assuming "London, Norwich" means that offices are in both locations, perhaps "London & Norwich" (or just pick one)?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hamlin 1986 — Why initials rather than a full first name?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:27, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moore 1985 — Perhaps "&" rather than "/"?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:29, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This version looked at. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:38, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these, all sorted now. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:29, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, I'm signed off. Amitchell125, I left two comments above (though ended up addressing the second myself). Something to keep in mind if you are able re The Times, but not a requirement. --Usernameunique (talk) 04:47, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Aza24

[edit]
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise with the above, perhaps a line could be added about his manner of frame making to the lead—maybe that he often made them for his fellow Norwich School colleagues?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A minor point, but you might considering altering the second paragraph of the lead so there's not three sentences in a row that begin with "he", "his" and then "he".
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:32, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "cannot be confirmed by documents" sounds a little awkward. I presume you're saying there are not enough surviving documents, but it comes off as there are a lot of documents, but they don't have the right information—would suggest rephrasing the sentence.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:34, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • wondering why "and was an" can't just be "as" if he worked these positions in Elephant Yard
Text amended, whilst still making it clear his role as churchwarden was not an occupation. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • why "carver and gilder" and not "carver, gilder..."? If he was just a leading carver and guilder, you could add the "as well as" to separate the occupations from picture dealer and printmaker—the current double and with commas just seems odd
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This painting seems to have been unusual"—maybe "The subject matter" instead of "This painting", since the painting it self isn't unusual
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any year for Devil's Tower – Looking towards Carrow Bridge and/or Old Waterside Cottage, Norwich?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed "and was criticised for..." to "but was criticised for..." but honestly not sure which makes more sense
Your edit looks fine imo. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only other thing is I wonder if "Technique" might be a little narrow of a section name, what about "Style and technique"?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:04, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aza24—All sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:20, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A great read, happy to support. Aza24 (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM

[edit]
  • "lesser extent) John Sell Cotman" why not just Cotman?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is Indigo capitalised?
Now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty sure we don't need to link "education".
Crikey, agreed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "carver, gilder" what are these?
Links added to explain these occupations. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mr. Allwood" maybe times have changed but I was taught that no full stop was required on abbreviations which have the first and last letter of the word...
Mmm, MOS:POINTS allows me to keep it in, so I will. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:30, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exhibited five paintings at an exhibition" repetitive.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "c.1803–1808," shouldn't that be c. 1803 – 1808?
Sorted (3 times). Amitchell125 (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you're relinking terms linked in the lead then watercolour needs relinking.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as Vice-President of the Society" why all the capitals?
Capitals taken out. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:36, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "married John Sell Cotman" again, why do we need his first names this time?
My force of habit, no-one calls him anything else. Cotman it is. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "excellence". " shouldn't that full stop be inside the quote?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "light effects;[43]" something missing or that should be a full stop.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:40, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of buffs, blues and grey-browns" you previously only linked buffs. I would be consistent.
Only 'buffs' should have been linked. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:42, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for art historians[2] that " why can't we just put that ref at the end of the sentence.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as purple and brown madder" you link purple (which I think is a common word) but not brown madder which I have never heard of...
Madder is now linked. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "natural indigo pigment" you mentioned indigo in the previous section but didn't link it there.
Now linked correctly. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorted (I hope). Amitchell125 (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beard needs en-dash in year range in title.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Added. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise nothing much to complain about, seems as comprehensive as it can be given its opening caveat that not much was known about him! The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 19:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

High praise indeed from The Rambling Man! Many thanks for the above comments, all of which I think are now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All good, nice work, happy to support. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 12:07, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Modussiccandi

[edit]
  • "...as his first exhibited works that were not landscapes " I find this sentence difficult to follow. Could it be that the word "his" should really be 'he'?
Thanks, sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was probably a founder member" would 'founding member' be more elegant?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After he developed to become a landscape artist" the juxtaposition comes across a bit clunky. Maybe just 'became'? Or something else entirely, like 'developed an interest in' etc.?
Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He exhibited only once outside Norwich, at the Royal Academy in 1808" you could add that the Academy was in London.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "created a superb rendition in black and white" one would think that these are the words of the Searle (2015). I feel a bit queasy about having 'Wikipedia's voice' praising the picture in this way. Maybe quotation marks could be added or something along those lines. Do tell me if I'm being too pedantic about this.
Sentence amended, as the words appear not to have originated from Searle either. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "equivalent to over £120,000 in modern currency" it would be more informative to replace "modern currency" with the year of the estimate.
Done, using the Wikipedia template. The value has increased using this website. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This unfortunate reddening" seems editorialising (MOS:EDITORIAL).
Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "should not have found time for a single drawing" this same quote is used earlier in the article. Was this by intention?
My error, and nobody else noticed! Removed from the legacy section. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:04, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding images: would it be possible to provide a date for the picture of the mother and for Crome's Woodland Scene?
The miniature was undated (I saw it at auction), and the Crome landscape came from a gallery in Norwich, I will contact them for more information about the date. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:17, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These are my comments on an interesting and well-written article. I will support promotion to FA once you've had a chance to reply to the above points. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff. Don't stress about the date for the Crome landscape; it won't keep me from supporting. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 09:01, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]
  • Don't use fixed px size
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:John_Thirtle_(lithograph_after_self-portrait).jpg: the given source predates the existence of Creative Commons, as does the death of the creator; how is it possible that this image is CC licensed?
Image replaced with the actual self-portrait instead of another artist's version of it. There is hopefully not a problem now. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:21, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Thirtle_-_Susanna_Thirtle_(miniature_of_the_artist's_mother).jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published?
The only way to get this information now is to contact the auctioneers and obtain details from the catalogue. Image removed until this is done. I was at the auction and it's just possible I took a photograph myself, so all may not be lost. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:30, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Source found from 2019, so image restored. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
When and where was this image first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to this (which I've added to its WikiCommons page), the image was included in the Keys Fine Art Auctioneers catalogue for their East Anglian Sale at their premises in Aylsham in October 2019. I've added this information to WikiCommons. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:31, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. The image currently has a tag stating it was published before 1926 - if it was not, that tag will need to be replaced. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've replaced the tag, to make it clear that the artist died in the 1830s. However, an image of the painting first appeared when Keys made their 2019 catalogue. If the tag I put in in wrong, could you point me in the right direction? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If that was truly the first publication of the image, then likely {{PD-US-unpublished}} would apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone for {{PD-US-unpublished}}, as even the Thirtle exhibition catalogue from the 1970s didn't publish it. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: issues now addressed, please advise if the last point isn't sorted properly yet. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Z1720

[edit]

Non-expert prose review. I reviewed this article at its peer review, although I will do another readthrough now.

  • The lede says he was born on 22 June 1777, but the article body says this is is baptismal date. I think you might need to put a note in the lede specifying that this date is his baptism date, not birthdate, unless we can verified that he was baptised on the day of his birth.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Apprenticed to a London frame-maker before returning home to Norwich, he set up a frame-making business, while continuing to paint." This sentence feels awkward because it is combining two separate thoughts of his frame-making career with his painting activities. I would move this sentence about painting to the end of the frame-making career section of the lede. I would also rework this sentence as, "After apprenticing with a London frame-maker, he returned to Norwich to establish a frame-making business."
I've amended the paragraph, which now hopefully is a little less awkward-sounding. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His father, who worked in Elephant Yard off Magdalen Street as" wikilinks for Elephant Yar and Magdalen Street?
No such links exist. Elephant Yard, now lost, was a small enclosed courtyard surrounded by buildings, and Magdalen Street, although possibly notable enough to have its own article, does not have one. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jeremiah and William Freeman, who dominated the Norwich framing market during this period." Wikilinks for Jeremiah and William Freeman?
There are no links for the Freemans. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he produced outdoors what the art historian Andrew Hemingway has described as "wonderfully spontaneous and sure sketches"." Is outdoors supposed to be there?
Yes—he painted outdoors. Link to En plein airadded. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This subject matter seems to have been unusual," Can this statement be more definite? Maybe "This subject matter was different from his previous work" or "This subject matter was usual for him because...."
Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:38, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He then became a landscape artist, depicting scenes of the rivers Yare and Wensum, and thunderstorms, and the nature of his exhibited works changed." Too many ands. Maybe, "The nature of his exhibited works changed with depictions of landscapes, like the rivers Yare and Wensum, and thunderstorms."

Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Crome, Cotman and Thirtle were sources of inspiration for the artists of the Norwich School.[19] He served as vice-president of the society from 1806 to 1812." Since three people were introduced in this first sentence, the use of he is undefined in the second sentence and should be changed to Thirtle (who I assume is the person you are talking about)
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "from a peak of 17 (in 1806)" 17 a year? Should be specified.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:59, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " from the Society in 1816, to form the Norfolk" I don't think this comma is needed.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The secession was caused by a disagreement..." This sentence is very long and should be split.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:11, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""exceptional";[19] His pictures" Either this semi-colon should be a period (recommended) or his should be in lowercase
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and is likely to consist in part from works such as Ackermann's New Drawing Book (1809)." What is this trying to tell the reader? I was confused by this and it might need to be reworded.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which Allthorpe-Guyton considers to be owing to his lack of success" -> "which Allthorpe-Guyton attributes to his lack of success"
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

These are my comments. Please ping me when ready for a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 00:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Thanks for the above comments, which I've now addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed. I can now support. Z1720 (talk) 02:19, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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