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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:07, 30 March 2008.

Ima Hogg

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is the most comprehensive single article on this fascinating woman, and it meets the Featured article critera. I did a lot of the research and writing, but this has been a team collaboration. Special thank-yous to: Elcobbola and The Fat Man Who Never Came Back for image help, Corvus cornix and SWTPC6800 for research, Nishkid64 for writing the lead, Yomangani and Maralia and Tony1 for copyediting, and SandyGeorgia for MOS help and general whip-cracking (and if I forgot anyone I am sorry). Karanacs (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:LEAD and reformat with a four paragraph lead.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 21:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
done. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Generally speaking, it looks like a very interesting article. I noticed that two of the picture captions mention the entrance to her home, but I don't see that the significance of the entrance is explained anywhere. Why is the entrance notable?Ferrylodge (talk) 21:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention that the second one's caption is talking about how she restored the entrance, when the actual picture is of the back. — Laura Scudder ☎ 22:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good points, I added a sentence to explain why the entrances were a big deal at this home. What is now the front entrance used to be the back; the original entrance is now the back of the house. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Hogg served as district attorney from 1880 to 1884. This article suggests there was an intervening election in 1882 (which he won after giving his daughter an amusing name). However, The Texas Constitution of 1868, Article V, Section 12, stated: "There shall be a District Attorney elected by the qualified voters of each judicial district, who shall hold his office for four years; and the duties, salaries and perquisites of District Attorney shall be prescribed by law."[1] Are we sure that the term of office had been reduced to two years, as of 1882? In other words, are we sure that there was an election in 1882?Ferrylodge (talk) 23:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is what my source said, in discussion of her name. I checked several sources on Jim Hogg, and they all said that he was district attorney from 1880-1884 but didn't specify whether that was one term or two. I checked the Constitution of 1872 (which should have been in effect during the 1880s), and it says that if there is no district attorney, then a county attorney would have a 2-yr term.[2] It's possible that my source confused district with county attorney; I'm not sure. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found a source that definitely confirms he ran for reelection in 1882.[3]Ferrylodge (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We say in the article that "there are some who believe that James Stephen Hogg...." Do we know whether this is a fringe belief, the belief of a large minority, or a majority belief? For a Wikipedia article to say "some people say" seems weaselly even if the Wikipedia article is quoting some source saying "some people say." See what I'm saying?Ferrylodge (talk) 00:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a direct quote, and the source does not go into any more detail. The Hoggs are the subject of much legend in Texas; these stories are common knowledge and often discussed in schools. This is another legend, and I don't have any way of being more specific. If others think that this is also problematic we can take out that whole sentence, but I'd like to wait for further opinions. Karanacs (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't take out that sentence, but maybe rephrasing to: "legend has it 'that James Stephen Hogg....'" There seems to be a ton of evidence that this was mere legend. See Mary Kelly's book. Also, since this book by Kelly is available online (via Google Books), it would probably be a good idea to link to it.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to think about the rewording. I think the article makes it clear that this is a legend, and I'm not sure the value in removing this as a direct quote. (and thanks for adding the link to the Google book in the article) Karanacs (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with a few small points.
    • "Hogg worked on a volume about her father's papers" - the word "volume" is wierd and unclear to me in this context. Do you mean a single book in a set of books? If so, it's oddly worded.
    • I haven't seen other articles have external links to pictures of the subject. I'm not sure if this is within Wikipedia standards so I think they should either be added if PD-US or the links removed. There's already a link to the Commons category, so PD images could be added there if the point is making a collection of images about her.

Overall, this article is very well written and ready to be featured. Royalbroil 02:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded to "Hogg worked on a collection of her father's papers", as it was actually a multi-volume set. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree with you about the images, especially since several of them were poor images. I've removed all but her page at the UT Santa Rita Awards. Karanacs (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved, --GrahamColmTalk 23:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I just had four (five now) edit conflicts when trying to do so strike outs; so please take them as done. --GrahamColmTalk 02:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)) (Just finishing my strike outs)--GrahamColmTalk 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Having gotten the nitt-picking sorted out, now it’s time for the compliments. This is a masterpiece , a fine, encyclopaedic biography of one of America’s great philanthropists. I felt I knew Ima Hogg well after reading this and her portrait at the top of the article is worthy of being featured alone. I know have said this about other FAs, but this is a great Wikipedia treasure. Graham. --GrahamColmTalk 02:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment There may be some organizational quirks remaining from the “dump all information in now and sort out later” writing method. For instance, as Ferrylodge pointed out, there are events from 1914 in the “early years” section (Ima was in her early 30s). Also, the third paragraph of the “Education and musical interests” seems out of place, as the context (or, perhaps, just the wording) seems to imply that visiting “concerts and museums” was a merely a diversion from grief (i.e. not an action that should really be interpreted as supporting/indicating/etc. her interests). ЭLСОВВОLД talk 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One morning, Hogg was awakened by a burglar in her bedroom. She confronted the man, who was attempting to steal her jewelry, and convinced him to not only return the jewelry, but "wrote down a name and address, handed it to him and told him to go there that very day to get a job".[96] When asked why she did that, Hogg responded, "He didn't look like a bad man."[96] Later that year, she sailed to Germany, alone.
How old was Miss Ima during this burglary. "Later that year???" Later what year? The year of the burglary? A mediocre student of history would have to click on the Franz Ferdinand link to figure when these events occurred.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added citation to the burglary in 1914. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Makes more sense, at least to me. She was thirty-two! That would have been a much cuter burglar-thwarting story if she had been ten years old or something.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are quite right, as usual. There's no other way to handle these, as long as all the non-quote metric units are formatted the same.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The following sentences sound awkward when paired together: "Her interest in mental health came from her father, who had read widely on mental health issues; during his terms as governor, Ima had often accompanied him on visits to state institutions, including charity hospitals and asylums for the mentally ill.[51] While she was a student at UT, she became fascinated with mental health.[52]"
So did she glean an interest in mental health from from her father when she was a child, or did she first become interested in the subject as a college student? We might want to re-word the second sentence to make it clearer that she continued to pursue her passion for mental health while in college (as long as we don't stray from the sources, of course).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good, Karancs.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Worthy article on an amazing woman. (Disclaimer: I provided some bits of information from the Iscoe reference—some of which were included and some of which were not—and also a few relatively minor edits, but was not otherwise engaged in the creation of the article) — Bellhalla (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<off topic comment moved to talk page> SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support with a few nitpicks
Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 22:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • First paragraph of Name section, fourth sentence (starts "According to Virginia...") just seems awkward to me with the parenthetical bit at the end walled off by footnotes. Perhaps word the last part as "year where he was running in a close race for district attorney of the Seventh District in Texas,[3] which he won."
    • Early years section, last sentence of the first paragraph. Indignities? Sounds a bit POV to me. Can we quote her for that? Or a biographer? As written it seems like the article is casting judgement that children having to help clean unusual. (It better not be or my son would never clean his room...)
    • You mention that one of her brothers was William, but refer to him as Will through most of the article. Perhaps put the nickname with the first mention of his full name to make things clear?
    • Education section, the last paragraph, seventh sentence. College Women's Club? Which college? Rice? St. Thomas? Another one? There are a number of colleges in Houston.
Otherwise looks pretty good! Ealdgyth - Talk 02:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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